KGSShv Carbon - hows it sound with the 009s?

[Whitigir]

DAC is only a part of the source (conversion side), you will need another part of the source (transport) too

 

[katulu]

Lost in song when I should go to sleep for work. Dave's depth coupled with the 009 and live music is really unbelievable.

I know EXACTLY what you mean... sadly. I need a 32 hour day to fit both music listening and sleep! My setup is Galaxy S5/Neutron MP/PEQ->DAVE->BHSE->009. Never ceases to amaze.

 

[SilverEars]

This is not carbon related, but I'd like to share an interesting experience with electrostatic amps.

I haven't tried many amps with the SR009, and I do not have the Carbon, just the regular KGSSHV. I recently tried a Hifiman Shangri-La Jr setup, and happened to have MrSpeakers VOCE and tried the SR009 with the amp. Amp did improve the sound of the SR009, sounding tighter, punchier, better bass, and cleaner overall. The amp sounded pretty transparent. I realized VOCE sounds the way it does is due to the HIfiman amp, LOL. Which is odd since Hifiman headphone that comes with it doesn't sound as good. This means that amp is good, not the headphone attached to it.

Perhaps he tuned the headphone that comes with the amp to perform worse as he has the $50k Shangri-La.

Ideally, I wish there was a place I can try all the electrostatic amps with SR009 (also other STAX) and VOCE. I would be so interested in comparing them, and figuring out what sounds best.

 

[Whitigir]

I have been saying this for a long time now. The headphones make the different too! But to ES, the Amp is even more important, because the Headphones has nothing but layered of electrodes, and the amplifier is what providing the driving mechanism into it. Where as, Dynamic headphones has a huge Magnet attached in it own

 

[SilverEars]

I have been saying this for a long time now. The headphones make the different too! But to ES, the Amp is even more important, because the Headphones has nothing but layered of electrodes, and the amplifier is what providing the driving mechanism into it. Where as, Dynamic headphones has a huge Magnet attached in it own

Well, headphone is a limiter, and the amp is the enhancement is the way I see it. You can't enhance any more with a limiter, and that's the headphone. I've realized that the limiter of the Shangri-La Jr system is the headphone itself, not the amp. Ok, in this way we can say a component in the chain is a limiter as well.

I guess people always say headphones since it's is the end of the chain, but if we think of unlimited combinations, it's any component in the chain.

 

[astrostar59]

Well, headphone is a limiter, and the amp is the enhancement is the way I see it. You can't enhance any more with a limiter, and that's the headphone. I've realized that the limiter of the Shangri-La Jr system is the headphone itself, not the amp. Ok, in this way we can say a component in the chain is a limiter as well.

I guess people always say headphones since it's is the end of the chain, but if we think of unlimited combinations, it's any component in the chain.

I see it (heard it) as the headphone 'scales up or down' with an amplifier in dynamics, power, timbre, smoothness, soundstage width and depth. The 009 IMO scales better than the 007 as the latter has a muddy and slow bass and some smearing of the treble / veil over the detail. So to 'fix' the 007 you need a very bright and fast amp with lots of power, so the Carbon in that case. The 009 needs a warmer amp IMO, something to 'tame' the treble forward presentation. The KGSShv sounded a better match with the 009s and my Sanyo off-board 450v example did just that. The Carbon was not a long termer for me, too bright and led to fatigue / less use and long term enjoyment. Fun to dissect the tracks though, but not realistic to my ears. The BHSE and Mullard NOS tubes are a good match for the 009 to my ears, though still too bright with a source tweak.

 

[Whitigir]

A thing for sure is that if you are touching Kg high-end amplifiers and SR009, everything in your chain will matter

Files quality
Transport
Interconnect cables
DAC
Digital cables
XLR Interconnect Cables
Etc....

There is no simple 1 device that does all

DAVE May be expensive, and perceived by many as High-end, but under some people eyes, it is hardly deserving it price. Switching power supply but not Linear Power Supply, and not to mention the Clock system that it is using. See ? When we are talking about DAC, there are other things to debate, components tolerances, Clock precision and floor noises, power supply.....distortions....etc....There is no single thing

It is a rabbit holes...so Run...Run before you dig deep and burry yourself LoL!

But here is one thing I can tell you all for sure as of why we keep talking about KG amplifiers instead of the rest of the rabbit holes ? Because KG designs are legendary, and then the components being used to build, regardless of different builders, are all good stuff. Then what is so special about KG-T2 ? Because it is another level of components choices and very particular Works/experiences to make it work.

That is why we keep talking about KG amplifier as a starting point for your Stax system, not only that Stax is sensitive to the amplifiers that is driving it, but KG amplifiers are good devices from the ground up. So, once you get either a Carbon, BHSE, GG, or T2, then you can start looking at other components.

Remember, the game will never end

 

[Whitigir]

I also agree about the call that Stax has 3 flagship headphones , the 007, 009, and 009S.

When I listened to 007 MKI out of a Carbon, it was an excellent pair up

Same as 009 out of a Tubes version of the Carbon, Grounded Grid

Then I decided to build the T2 because I love 009, and then luckily, my T2 can also make my 009S perform wonderfully too, but 009 is still unbeatable out of the T2. Then may be the 009S was made for Carbon ? Lol...anyways, I am not in the mood to get Carbon again, maybe one day in the future.

 

[Drewligarchy]

DAC is only a part of the source (conversion side), you will need another part of the source (transport) too

Agreed - but I think it depends on the DAC. Most DAC manufacturers say there DAC's are source immune. Most are not. That said, I'm finding the claims for the Dave to be pretty spot on.

I am using An Auralic Aries Femto with Linear Power Supply, which is by no means a bad source - but I am sure there are better. Honestly, though, it sounds fantastic out of my 2012 unoptimized Mac Mini as well.

With the Bricasti M1 I had completely different story. It had a network card, but sounded dramatically different with a switch between the router and DAC, (which didn't make technical sense to me), and completely different from USB, and completely different from AES/COAX.

I haven't heard dramatic differences in transports - but in fairness have not heard a lot of very high end ones. If only money were really no object

 

[Drewligarchy]

A thing for sure is that if you are touching Kg high-end amplifiers and SR009, everything in your chain will matter

Files quality
Transport
Interconnect cables
DAC
Digital cables
XLR Interconnect Cables
Etc....

There is no simple 1 device that does all

DAVE May be expensive, and perceived by many as High-end, but under some people eyes, it is hardly deserving it price. Switching power supply but not Linear Power Supply, and not to mention the Clock system that it is using. See ? When we are talking about DAC, there are other things to debate, components tolerances, Clock precision and floor noises, power supply.....distortions....etc....There is no single thing

It is a rabbit holes...so Run...Run before you dig deep and burry yourself LoL!

But here is one thing I can tell you all for sure as of why we keep talking about KG amplifiers instead of the rest of the rabbit holes ? Because KG designs are legendary, and then the components being used to build, regardless of different builders, are all good stuff. Then what is so special about KG-T2 ? Because it is another level of components choices and very particular Works/experiences to make it work.

That is why we keep talking about KG amplifier as a starting point for your Stax system, not only that Stax is sensitive to the amplifiers that is driving it, but KG amplifiers are good devices from the ground up. So, once you get either a Carbon, BHSE, GG, or T2, then you can start looking at other components.

Remember, the game will never end

I agree that DAVE doesn't have the components of a lot of DACs in that price range (i.e. Linear power supplies, clocks, etc.) - I would say just listen to it. I went through a lot of DACs in that price range and none did it for me like the DAVE, and many were bigger and more over-engineered from a hardware perspective. It is just different in a very good way. I am acutely aware of all the Chord hype on head fi - which is why I've demoed everything first - because I have made mistakes, specifically in the DAC department. After a couple weeks of heavy listening, I am certain that I've made the right decision.

I completely agree that KG designs are exceptionally well engineered. I can't begin to speak to the choices Chord made in the creation of that DAC. I just know how it sounds in my system.

FWIW - I have no doubt that the T2, as you mention, would be the biggest upgrade I could make to my electrostatic system. As mentioned, at the moment I needed something more versatile for my other rigs as well - and really wasn't super happy with any of my sources. Can't wait to hear the 009 with the T2!

BTW, Whitigir, If I end up going the T2 - your going to be the primary reason why. Your glowing endorsements and my trust of your ears will most likely be what pushes me over the edge

 

[Whitigir]

Agreed - but I think it depends on the DAC. Most DAC manufacturers say there DAC's are source immune. Most are not. That said, I'm finding the claims for the Dave to be pretty spot on.

I am using An Auralic Aries Femto with Linear Power Supply, which is by no means a bad source - but I am sure there are better. Honestly, though, it sounds fantastic out of my 2012 unoptimized Mac Mini as well.

With the Bricasti M1 I had completely different story. It had a network card, but sounded dramatically different with a switch between the router and DAC, (which didn't make technical sense to me), and completely different from USB, and completely different from AES/COAX.

I haven't heard dramatic differences in transports - but in fairness have not heard a lot of very high end ones. If only money were really no object

It is pretty wrong to say DAC is source immune....they just want to market their own marketing

1/ Look, when a computer read 1 and 0, it needs to know when 1 happened, and when 0 happened (this needs a clock source)

2/ When the computer get this, it then input toward a calculation (your player program), and then it get further calculation with whatever algorithm the program is calculating. It can adjust or subtract values, and how the algorithm is being done, it will influence the sound performances. Each playback app has their own sound signatures pretty much.

3/ then this information get into your DAC by the so called Digital Interfaces, it could be done by USB out and back into USB in (on your DAC, which is either Xmos or Amanero, Sony has it own and I believe Chord does ? Not sure). By this, the Digital interfaces yet again need to know when it is being fed what bit and values....so...bit perfect is never really perfect.

4/ Because your Digital interface has it own ways of pulling and processing this data, together with it own clock system, it will yet again influence the sound performances. This is why both the largest DAC makers such as AKM and ESS are out to produce DSP chip. Gustard U16 is now using the newest ESS-DSP chip.

5/ Then your DAC will need to know exactly what it is being fed, and when these 1-0-0-1 was pulled, in order to convert it correctly. Therefore DPLL happened, to compare and synthesized with the interface clocks. Some people say at this final step, their DAC is immune....but whatever information were lost or altered, then it won’t be able to recover

So, no...nothing is immune to Clock sources. Bad clock will be just bad, regardless of when it is happening. Remember, sin wave is infinite, and every time it is effected, it gets altered.

The strangest thing is that clock precision and other parameters is affected by the length it is traveling from “mm” unit. Therefore, ideally, you want an all in one device, that is a source and a DAC all together. Then clocks rely on Piezoelectric mechanism, and this means that when current and voltage travel through a component, it get deformed and vibrate, especially capacitors (Tantalum and SMD capacitors). So, there are new capacitors nowadays which were dedicatedly made to minimize this vibrations, PETL capacitors or film capacitors ? These are very expensive, but Sony is using it. Usually they are very low capacitances and low voltage. However, the newest products are now able to be much higher, especially when Sony design and custom order some of them. It resulted in a ground breaking DMP-Z1.

I know, people has been worrying about many other things, but never SMD capacitors. Sony does, and it is priced of your DAVE . The DMP-Z1 can accept external Linear Power Supply though, and that is a huge plus

Anyways, the game will never end, and what I am trying to say is that everything will affect the sound quality, there is nothing immune to anything, period

 

[Whitigir]

BTW, Whitigir, If I end up going the T2 - your going to be the primary reason why. Your glowing endorsements and my trust of your ears will most likely be what pushes me over the edge

Thank you! I am flattered

 

[106099]

I used to live in NYC, about 30 years ago, but I live in NM now.

Nice! My grandparents still live there, but the city get busier and scarier every year goes by from my experiences...lol[/QUOTE]

NYC is really not that scary, unless you ride the subways.

 

[JimL11]

Nice! My grandparents still live there, but the city get busier and scarier every year goes by from my experiences...lol

NYC is really not that scary, unless you ride the subways. [/QUOTE]

Actually, that's my quote, not Whitigir's. And I ride the subways all the time when I visit NYC. To me, it's no scarier than 30 some years ago.

 

[szymonsays]

Ended up going up with the Carbon I think i'm done in regards to future hifi purchases. The SR-009 and the LCD-4's are all i will ever need