KGSShv Carbon - hows it sound with the 009s?

[mulveling]

Excuse me for my ignorance in all things electrical engineering, but I've read that the Sic Fets used in the Carbon are tube like. Do they have a harmonic distortion characteristic like tubes, or is it just a question of warm up?

The Carbon w/ Sic FETs sounds great and does some awesome things, but they're certainly not going to fool a tube lover into thinking they have a tube sound. I greatly preferred 009S over 009 on the Carbon, and also preferred BHSE over Carbon with 009 on each (but only slightly preferred BHSE over Carbon with 009S on each).

As for the Yggy warmup - the claims of extended warmup (is it 3 weeks? 3 days?) seem like a gimmick to make the fanboy base even more rabid. There's no way that cheap metal box takes THAT long to hit thermal equilibrium. I generally left my A1 on 24/7, but there were a few times it had to cool down while I rearranged stuff for a while, and I never noticed a drop in SQ an hour or so after plugging in again. What DID make a big sonic difference was bypassing that awful Gen 3 USB input. It was surely a great sounding DAC, but the hype on Schiit products and the company itself is a turnoff to me. I have only room enough in my heart to over-hype Stax in the headphone realm!

 

[Drewligarchy]

The Carbon w/ Sic FETs sounds great and does some awesome things, but they're certainly not going to fool a tube lover into thinking they have a tube sound. I greatly preferred 009S over 009 on the Carbon, and also preferred BHSE over Carbon with 009 on each (but only slightly preferred BHSE over Carbon with 009S on each).

As for the Yggy warmup - the claims of extended warmup (is it 3 weeks? 3 days?) seem like a gimmick to make the fanboy base even more rabid. There's no way that cheap metal box takes THAT long to hit thermal equilibrium. I generally left my A1 on 24/7, but there were a few times it had to cool down while I rearranged stuff for a while, and I never noticed a drop in SQ an hour or so after plugging in again. What DID make a big sonic difference was bypassing that awful Gen 3 USB input. It was surely a great sounding DAC, but the hype on Schiit products and the company itself is a turnoff to me. I have only room enough in my heart to over-hype Stax in the headphone realm!

I hear you. I really need to hear a BHSE with my 009. I heard a BHSE once at CanJam but was with Mr. Speakers Voce.

I think I might get there eventually, but right now don’t have room for one in my NYC apartment with wife and 2 year old running around who has already discovered how to turn my Carbon on and off. Maybe I go T2 as well, who knows - but wanted to invest in a top flight headphone dac to use with my electrostats, dynamics and planars first - as I can use it with multiple systems.

I am really happy with the sound at the moment. The Carbon mini sits perfectly in my makeshift headphone rack/wine rack and it has never sounded better.

In terms of the Yggy, I’ve recently experienced it with A2 as well as A1 previously. I do think it’s hyped but is a good dac and requires some burn in time (maybe a week). Afterward it was my experience it came to thermal equilibrium much more quickly - like 24 hours. I did extensive listening tests - but they of course can be fallible. I do think with R2R there is something to extensive warm up - as what I’ve read makes sense. That said, I have no knowledge of electrical engineering - so I could be wrong.

As I have the Carbon mini it gets hot - so I never thought of leaving it on 24/7.

I love the soundstage and bass of the Carbon, and the mids are really very good. That said, if mids are your number one priority with the 009 - my guess would be the BHSE would have it best from what I’ve read. Have to take a listen, though, obviously.

My dad has a first gen WES and 007s. I’ve never listened to it with the 009, afraid that it could potentially screw them up. Is the consensus that some of the Woo amps could still damage phones, and would I get a taste of the tube magic of the BHSE with a WES?

Also, I know Justin is planning a new amp. Anyone anticipating the BHSE will be eventually discontinued? I might get one after me move out to the burbs - but would hate to miss out if I wait too long.

 

[Whitigir]

I hear you. I really need to hear a BHSE with my 009. I heard a BHSE once at CanJam but was with Mr. Speakers Voce.

I think I might get there eventually, but right now don’t have room for one in my NYC apartment with wife and 2 year old running around who has already discovered how to turn my Carbon on and off. Maybe I go T2 as well, who knows - but wanted to invest in a top flight headphone dac to use with my electrostats, dynamics and planars first - as I can use it with multiple systems.

I am really happy with the sound at the moment. The Carbon mini sits perfectly in my makeshift headphone rack/wine rack and it has never sounded better.

In terms of the Yggy, I’ve recently experienced it with A2 as well as A1 previously. I do think it’s hyped but is a good dac and requires some burn in time (maybe a week). Afterward it was my experience it came to thermal equilibrium much more quickly - like 24 hours. I did extensive listening tests - but they of course can be fallible. I do think with R2R there is something to extensive warm up - as what I’ve read makes sense. That said, I have no knowledge of electrical engineering - so I could be wrong.

As I have the Carbon mini it gets hot - so I never thought of leaving it on 24/7.

I love the soundstage and bass of the Carbon, and the mids are really very good. That said, if mids are your number one priority with the 009 - my guess would be the BHSE would have it best from what I’ve read. Have to take a listen, though, obviously.

My dad has a first gen WES and 007s. I’ve never listened to it with the 009, afraid that it could potentially screw them up. Is the consensus that some of the Woo amps could still damage phones, and would I get a taste of the tube magic of the BHSE with a WES?

Also, I know Justin is planning a new amp. Anyone anticipating the BHSE will be eventually discontinued? I might get one after me move out to the burbs - but would hate to miss out if I wait too long.

Nope! Best of it all would have to be KG-T2

 

[JimL11]

I hear you. I really need to hear a BHSE with my 009. I heard a BHSE once at CanJam but was with Mr. Speakers Voce.

I think I might get there eventually, but right now don’t have room for one in my NYC apartment with wife and 2 year old running around who has already discovered how to turn my Carbon on and off. Maybe I go T2 as well, who knows - but wanted to invest in a top flight headphone dac to use with my electrostats, dynamics and planars first - as I can use it with multiple systems.

I am really happy with the sound at the moment. The Carbon mini sits perfectly in my makeshift headphone rack/wine rack and it has never sounded better.

In terms of the Yggy, I’ve recently experienced it with A2 as well as A1 previously. I do think it’s hyped but is a good dac and requires some burn in time (maybe a week). Afterward it was my experience it came to thermal equilibrium much more quickly - like 24 hours. I did extensive listening tests - but they of course can be fallible. I do think with R2R there is something to extensive warm up - as what I’ve read makes sense. That said, I have no knowledge of electrical engineering - so I could be wrong.

As I have the Carbon mini it gets hot - so I never thought of leaving it on 24/7.

I love the soundstage and bass of the Carbon, and the mids are really very good. That said, if mids are your number one priority with the 009 - my guess would be the BHSE would have it best from what I’ve read. Have to take a listen, though, obviously.

My dad has a first gen WES and 007s. I’ve never listened to it with the 009, afraid that it could potentially screw them up. Is the consensus that some of the Woo amps could still damage phones, and would I get a taste of the tube magic of the BHSE with a WES?

Also, I know Justin is planning a new amp. Anyone anticipating the BHSE will be eventually discontinued? I might get one after me move out to the burbs - but would hate to miss out if I wait too long.

The WES has a number of issues. Spritzer, who is Mjolnir Audio, has documented that Woo has a cavalier attitude toward incorporating the proper (5 megohm) safety resistor after the last capacitor in the bias supply, and this can lead to damaging the diaphragms, especially if they are overdriven and contact the stators. In that circumstance the resistor prevents an excessive charge being dumped onto the diaphragms which could burn a hole in them.

In addition, the output tubes are loaded with a choke, which in Kevin GIlmore's opinion is too small to do the job. The main issue of a choke is that its impedance is frequency dependent, and is lowest in the bass and lower midrange frequencies, which is where the bulk of power in music is. This means that much of the signal current produced by the output tubes goes to heating the choke rather than driving the headphones. This is not only inefficient but increases the amount of distortion produced by the output tubes.

Also, the WES has a simple passive power supply rather than a regulated supply such as the BHSE, DIY T2, Carbon, KGST, Megatron, or even the budget SRX-Plus have. Simply put, the general consensus is that regulated supplies are better and the primary advantage of a passive supply is cost.

If you want a fair review of the relative merits of the WES and BHSE I suggest you read the InnerFidelity review by Tyll Hertsens. I haven't heard a WES but I think there are better tube electrostatic amps out there. Note that the BHSE is hybrid - front end and intermediate stages are solid state, only the output uses tubes. If you are into DIY, the SRX-Plus (relatively simple and cheap) and Megatron (significantly more complex and doubles as a space heater) use all tubes for amplification with solid state supporting elements to set operating conditions. As far as I know, everyone who has built either or both of these amps really likes them.

From what I've heard, Justin's new amp will use 20B direct heated triode outputs and cost in the range of $10,000. I'm not sure if it will use all tubes for the amplification duties, but I presume it will use some solid state for current sources and loads, etc.

Nope! Best of it all would have to be KG-T2

The general consensus to date is that the DIY T2 (aka KG-T2) is still the best sounding amp. Of course, since it is both expensive and rare, general consensus is probably the opinions of a dozen people . However, as others have pointed out, it is expensive with parts cost in the range of a complete HeadAmp BHSE or more, very complex, and the design uses solid state parts that are obsolete, which is part of the reason the parts cost is so high (the other reason is that there are so many parts). Because of this there are lots of things that could go wrong with a build, and because it is DC connected from input to output, everything affects everything else. I believe Kerry has redesigned it to use currently available parts, but I don't know if anyone else has done so.

 

[biscottino]

The Carbon w/ Sic FETs sounds great and does some awesome things, but they're certainly not going to fool a tube lover into thinking they have a tube sound. I greatly preferred 009S over 009 on the Carbon

yes, the 009s with the Carbon is really incredible, and I add, I got a slight hint of heat and an even more solid bass by changing the Carbon fuse.

 

[Drewligarchy]

[QUOTE=" The general consensus to date is that the DIY T2 (aka KG-T2) is still the best sounding amp. Of course, since it is both expensive and rare, general consensus is probably the opinions of a dozen people . However, as others have pointed out, it is expensive with parts cost in the range of a complete HeadAmp BHSE or more, very complex, and the design uses solid state parts that are obsolete, which is part of the reason the parts cost is so high (the other reason is that there are so many parts). Because of this there are lots of things that could go wrong with a build, and because it is DC connected from input to output, everything affects everything else. I believe Kerry has redesigned it to use currently available parts, but I don't know if anyone else has done so.[/QUOTE]

I've spoken to Kerry, who has been awesome, and considering commissioning a build with him. He also offered to let me hear his amps - I can bring over my shiny new DAVE - so that's probably my next step. I'm quite lucky he lives in my area (as do you JimL, I believe from our conversations). It's rare that you get a world class electrostatic amp builder close to home!

 

[Whitigir]

[QUOTE=" The general consensus to date is that the DIY T2 (aka KG-T2) is still the best sounding amp. Of course, since it is both expensive and rare, general consensus is probably the opinions of a dozen people . However, as others have pointed out, it is expensive with parts cost in the range of a complete HeadAmp BHSE or more, very complex, and the design uses solid state parts that are obsolete, which is part of the reason the parts cost is so high (the other reason is that there are so many parts). Because of this there are lots of things that could go wrong with a build, and because it is DC connected from input to output, everything affects everything else. I believe Kerry has redesigned it to use currently available parts, but I don't know if anyone else has done so.

I've spoken to Kerry, who has been awesome, and considering commissioning a build with him. He also offered to let me hear his amps - I can bring over my shiny new DAVE - so that's probably my next step. I'm quite lucky he lives in my area (as do you JimL, I believe from our conversations). It's rare that you get a world class electrostatic amp builder close to home![/QUOTE]

I visit NYC often too and sometime to NY state, but my T2 stays home

That is nice that you are going to have some blissful time

 

[Drewligarchy]

I've spoken to Kerry, who has been awesome, and considering commissioning a build with him. He also offered to let me hear his amps - I can bring over my shiny new DAVE - so that's probably my next step. I'm quite lucky he lives in my area (as do you JimL, I believe from our conversations). It's rare that you get a world class electrostatic amp builder close to home!

I visit NYC often too and sometime to NY state, but my T2 stays home

That is nice that you are going to have some blissful time [/QUOTE]

Blissful, perhaps - if the T2 is everything you say it is, Whitigir, on top of the Dave - that could end up putting a huge whole in my pocket.

I jumped into electrostats pretty early. I had a pair of Grado RS1s - and happened to stumble on a pair of new He60s at Lyric Hifi on the upper East Side in 2013. Apparently someone had ordered them years ago and never picked them up. They sold me a new He60 and amp for $1k - so I couldn't refuse. They didn't impress me too much with their own amp - so decided to build a small rig around them. At the time I was willing to spend about $3k for the whole rig - which seemed like a ton of money!

I bought a Wadia 121 DAC and a used 717 (thanks Mr Sneis!) - and Drew at Moon Audio reterminated the He60s for me. I remember sitting at my desk when I received everything - listenign to them and just giggling. At that point I was gone.

Have since come to appreciate Dynamics and Planars for what they do, but nothing is like a good electrostat. I never really warmed to the 007mkII but when I first heard the 009 - I realized they were perfect for me. At this point it's been a question of maximizing them. If I didn't have a compulsive need for headphone in my home office, for a portable rig, for work - etc - I could have easily bought a T2 already

Going to sell my Yggy A2, NAD M51, Violectric V281, SRM 717 my Preamps - and yes - even my HE60. I would consider selling my Carbon, but not until I at least get a new amp - and probably not unless I absolutely have to. At least I'll be able to offset the cost of a new electrostatic amp a little bit. The hardest thing is the He 60 - but I now listen to my 009s most of the time, the LCD4 some of the time - that there is not enough head time for them. I know the LCD4 is quite polarizing, but to me they are an excellent compliment to the 009 - and the DAVE has made them sound like a completely new headphone. Just gotta start putting some up on the classifieds.

 

[JimL11]

I've spoken to Kerry, who has been awesome, and considering commissioning a build with him. He also offered to let me hear his amps - I can bring over my shiny new DAVE - so that's probably my next step. I'm quite lucky he lives in my area (as do you JimL, I believe from our conversations). It's rare that you get a world class electrostatic amp builder close to home!

I visit NYC often too and sometime to NY state, but my T2 stays home

That is nice that you are going to have some blissful time [/QUOTE]

I used to live in NYC, about 30 years ago, but I live in NM now.

 

[Whitigir]

I visit NYC often too and sometime to NY state, but my T2 stays home

That is nice that you are going to have some blissful time

I used to live in NYC, about 30 years ago, but I live in NM now.[/QUOTE]

Nice! My grandparents still live there, but the city get busier and scarier every year goes by from my experiences...lol

 

[mulveling]

Definitely commission a T2 - I really think it will make an even bigger difference than your Dave! I gave up (sort of) on digital again, so I had to go back to $$$$ vinyl gear to feed my T2 a good enough source.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Definitely commission a T2 - I really think it will make an even bigger difference than your Dave! I gave up (sort of) on digital again, so I had to go back to $$$$ vinyl gear to feed my T2 a good enough source.

I don’t doubt it. I could rationalize the Dave more at the moment because I could use it with other headphones - and speakers if I like. The transparency of Stax made different sources relatively obvious. I think DACs make small but incredibly meaningful changes - especially with something as resolving as an 009. And I also have a Carbon already - so I’m not roughing it with the amp for the moment .

I am so tempted by the BHSE because price, you can get it quicker now, and it’s freaking beautiful. But I’m sure Kerry’s T2 would be equally beautiful from what I’ve seen. Ultimately it’s about sound of course - all of these guys make works of art Birgir, Justin and Kerry and all of the builders in this hobby that devote so much time to the community. And of course, Kevin Gilmore has essentiallly provided a sound that feeds and nourishes the soul. I’d feel pretty good if I could give that gift to so many people.

Ultimately I got to get some listening in with electrostatic tube amps to get some impressions. Not that all options aren’t exceptionally good, but at this level, if your going to spend that kind of money you want something that just nails it for your preferences.

I got burned previously because I got bought a Bricasti M1 dealer demo blind, because it was a good deal. Just didn’t work for me. didn’t make that mistake with Dave- I was not spending that money without demoing at home in my system.

Going to latch DAVE to some Uber electrostatic amps, GG, BHSE and T2 (i I can find them). Any chance Justin has his new amp at CanJam in Februday? definitely listening tour and taking my time with it (or impulsively buy something next week). But seriously, I want the system to be perfect, as it will be with me for a lg time, and I need to replenish the wallet from DAVE.

 

[Whitigir]

Once you hear 009 with T2, everything else will be boring, and there won’t be (other headphones anymore! Because u have only so much time )

 

[buzzlulu]

I could rationalize the Dave more.... I think DACs make small but incredibly meaningful changes - especially with something as resolving as an 009. And I also have a Carbon already - so I’m not roughing it with the amp for the moment .

While I realize in the electrostatic game amplifier is oh so important I still maintain what I learned 20 years ago in high end two channel - source is still number one. Don't discount the importance of your DAC (or turntable). Imho you can have the best amplifier in the world - if your turntable (source) is not capable of extracting all of the music out of the grooves than the best amplifier is only amplifying half the music - the rest is stuck and left behind in the grooves and you are missing out on it. Sit down and listen to an entry level Rega turntable, then the TOTL Rega, and finally something like a Linn LP12 ( I might be bias for that one ). Each jump up extracts more and more music from the grooves - an amplifier can only amplify the music it is given. Same applies to digital and DACS. Your DAVE is an extremely important part of the sound you are getting.

If I was a wagering man I would say that a Dave/Carbon would sound much better than a Mojo/T2

 

[Drewligarchy]

While I realize in the electrostatic game amplifier is oh so important I still maintain what I learned 20 years ago in high end two channel - source is still number one. Don't discount the importance of your DAC (or turntable). Imho you can have the best amplifier in the world - if your turntable (source) is not capable of extracting all of the music out of the grooves than the best amplifier is only amplifying half the music - the rest is stuck and left behind in the grooves and you are missing out on it. Sit down and listen to an entry level Rega turntable, then the TOTL Rega, and finally something like a Linn LP12 ( I might be bias for that one ). Each jump up extracts more and more music from the grooves - an amplifier can only amplify the music it is given. Same applies to digital and DACS. Your DAVE is an extremely important part of the sound you are getting.

If I was a wagering man I would say that a Dave/Carbon would sound much better than a Mojo/T2

Based on my recent experiences with DACs your absolutely right - especially with how resolving the 009’s are. Dead neutral, completely black background, the total absence of glare but still incredibly lively, super resolving, incredible depth and imaging, holographic, fluid but not lush - all adjectives I think of listening to this setup. Vega had too much treble glare and Yggrasil is incredibly good for the price - but the DAVE, in my opinion, is a significant upgrade based on improvements in all the areas mentioned. That said, IMO it takes a lot of money to improve on the Yggdrasil. I tried a number of 5-6k DACs that we’re more of a sidegrade.