[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanalei mike /img/forum/go_quote.gif If speaker placement and positioning, speaker cables, interconnects, and volume, can all affect sound and soundstage, why wouldn't changing the cable at very beginning of the chain, have an affect on the sound?

You've listed a bunch of random things, some of which make big differences, and others that make very little difference. In general, acoustic things like the shape of the room and the placement of the speakers and the design of the speakers themselves make huge differences on sound quality. Cables in general are supposed to conduct electricity efficiently. If they are doing their job properly, one cable is as good as another. If a cable alters the sound in any way, it is defective. It's pretty simple, actually.

See ya
Steve

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanalei mike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, while I don't have any clever animated avatars to distract from my lack of content, which I don't have much of myself, just a question. If speaker placement and positioning, speaker cables, interconnects, and volume, can all affect sound and soundstage, why wouldn't changing the cable at very beginning of the chain, have an affect on the sound? Saying I have pulled the wool over my eyes is the same old,"I can't hear any difference, so therefore you are wrong" mentality, which is about as useful as the, " my ears/and or system are better then yours" which I doubt they are, but if you are telling me you have never heard a difference in sound from any power related product, cable, conditioner, supply, etc., I would have to wonder. Mike

Mike, all of the things you listed produce measurable differences. You can use a SPL meter to demonstrate the effects of speaker placement. You can test, measure, demonstrate, and repeat those for others.

However, no one has ever tested a power cord and demonstrated a difference. No one. Cable controversy has been brewing for close to 20 years, and yet no one has produced solid measurements. Why is that?

Think about it. Cables are a multimillion dollar industry. It is competitive. Why wouldn't a company test their products to demolish the competition? There are millions in sales available to the company that does this.

So, in 20 years with millions at stake, not one company tests their products.

The entire industry is a scam. The only difference is on the balance sheets.

If you think I'm wrong, go ahead and measure the cables yourself. Go do what no one, apparently, has done. If you can measure something and work out a formula for "good" sounding cables, you stand to earn millions. Seriously, you do. Any idea why no one else has done this yet?

 

[Mike Wazowski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... However, no one has ever tested a power cord and demonstrated a difference. No one. Cable controversy has been brewing for close to 20 years, and yet no one has produced solid measurements. Why is that? Think about it. Cables are a multimillion dollar industry. It is competitive. Why wouldn't a company test their products to demolish the competition? There are millions in sales available to the company that does this. ...

I find this the strongest argument so far, albeit an indirect one. Seriously. Made me remember how on one of our professional society meeting a few years ago, a big company was showing of their "superior" 3D image reconstruction software, offering it for $15K/license. An immediate big warning sign for me was that they were not showing any data comparing the resolved detail - although such comparison would've gotten them some sales immediately!.. The images looked "nicer", bolder at lower magnification because of better signal-to-noise, sure, but resolution was actually worse - when someone requested an on-site demo later on. I must note, in our work, resolution is the goal. We can denoise if needed

So, although it is also all about signal processing, the analogy is limited... But yes indeed, excellent point - the industry would've made sure to give us the numbers, if there were any.

 

[hanalei mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mike, all of the things you listed produce measurable differences. You can use a SPL meter to demonstrate the effects of speaker placement. You can test, measure, demonstrate, and repeat those for others. However, no one has ever tested a power cord and demonstrated a difference. No one. Cable controversy has been brewing for close to 20 years, and yet no one has produced solid measurements. Why is that? Think about it. Cables are a multimillion dollar industry. It is competitive. Why wouldn't a company test their products to demolish the competition? There are millions in sales available to the company that does this. So, in 20 years with millions at stake, not one company tests their products. The entire industry is a scam. The only difference is on the balance sheets. If you think I'm wrong, go ahead and measure the cables yourself. Go do what no one, apparently, has done. If you can measure something and work out a formula for "good" sounding cables, you stand to earn millions. Seriously, you do. Any idea why no one else has done this yet?

Hi Erik,

If you are telling me you use all stock power cords in your system, and have tried others, but heard no differences in sound, at all? I can't argue with that, I believe you. You make a good point about the industry as well, but I have heard differences, not huge by my standards, but big enough for me. It usually is in the brighter-warmer area, and one moved the images further out width wise in the soundstage by about 6" sitting 8' back from speakers 6 ' apart. I noticed it, and there was no marketing telling me it would do that, but the others wouldn't. They all advertise the same improvements. The marketing is the same for the whole industry actually, speakers, amps, preamps, everything improves width, depth, detail, warmth, blah blah, but they all don't do that for everyone, or we would all have the exact same systems.

Mike

 

[pompon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can a power cable drastically change the sound of a DAC? or Amp?

Yes, it's a nice upgrade.

It's like interconnect with the tests I have done.

I tried 3 differets vd cables, 1 verastarr and 2 differents "stock".

PowerCord affect : dynamic, width and depth of soundstage, details, bass response, laid back or front presentation, coloration.

It's a nice fine tuning.

 

[oicdn]

I changed the power cable from a copper to a silver cable, with silver plated prongs as opposed to pure copper prongs.

They sound pretty much the same, but something is "different". Like the bass isn't as prominent (VERY VERY subtly), but it may just be my ears playing tricks on me from a 2 hour ride home. But something sounds different...no huge change like people make them out to be on here...

 

[Uncle Erik]

I've tried several power cables (Volex, no-names, a DIY one) and didn't find a difference. Got the same reading on the DMM on each, which was equal to the socket. I've got a Cardas cable on the HD-600, had a RB-300 rewired with Cardas, and something fussy I can't think of right now came with the SME IV tonearm that I compared to a generic. I have not heard differences with any of these cables, nor have I found any difference in measurements.

I do like the Cardas Sennheiser cable. Good construction, looks nice and is well made. But it sounds like the stock cable, and the reason I bought it was because some people said that skeptics were too cheap to buy an aftermarket cable. So I bought one. I'll keep it, but I am not planning to buy anything beyond Blue Jeans.

 

[hanalei mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've listed a bunch of random things, some of which make big differences, and others that make very little difference. In general, acoustic things like the shape of the room and the placement of the speakers and the design of the speakers themselves make huge differences on sound quality. Cables in general are supposed to conduct electricity efficiently. If they are doing their job properly, one cable is as good as another. If a cable alters the sound in any way, it is defective. It's pretty simple, actually. See ya Steve

Steve,
they are random because I am trying to make the point that almost everything in Hi-fi has the potential to affect sound quality, so why not power cables? Isn't it a possibility? How do you know if a cable is altering the sound, or presenting the sound as it truly is? I have three pairs of ic's at the moment which all sound different. I don't know which ones if not all are colored, or which ones are "doing their job properly" and present the music as recorded, but I do know which ones I like the sound of and which I do not.
I understand this thread is about power cables, and only speak to your clumping together of all cables.

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanalei mike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Erik, If you are telling me you use all stock power cords in your system, and have tried others, but heard no differences in sound, at all? I can't argue with that, I believe you. You make a good point about the industry as well, but I have heard differences, not huge by my standards, but big enough for me. It usually is in the brighter-warmer area, and one moved the images further out width wise in the soundstage by about 6" sitting 8' back from speakers 6 ' apart. I noticed it, and there was no marketing telling me it would do that, but the others wouldn't. They all advertise the same improvements. The marketing is the same for the whole industry actually, speakers, amps, preamps, everything improves width, depth, detail, warmth, blah blah, but they all don't do that for everyone, or we would all have the exact same systems. Mike

When you say you've heard differences do you mean that you changed some cables around and perceived a difference, or compared them in rigorous conditions to say for sure whether you heard a difference?

 

[Terminus Est 23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by monolith /img/forum/go_quote.gif When you say you've heard differences do you mean that you changed some cables around and perceived a difference, or compared them in rigorous conditions to say for sure whether you heard a difference?

Exactly. I once again have to relate the story, as someone who's a record engineer, of how often (seriously, probably every other band I did this too) guys would want their instrument up louder in the mix but I didn't want to boost it any higher because I felt it would ruin the other player's mixes. . . so I would just lean over, pretend to boost the volume and then look over and ask if it was better. Almost 100% of the time they'd tell me it was better or "perfect".

They truly believed that they heard a difference despite me knowing with absolute certainty that they had not.

 

[WittyzTH]

I also heard the difference by changing the power cords too. (I just did the A/B test with my friend and found it.) However, the difference is not like day and night - very subtle just like different tone.

Is it worth? It may, depends on how much you expect the difference and the price/performance ratio.

 

[Jolida302]

The people who really hear the differences are those who own transparent systems. You need musical components, preferably tubes in the highs, and a minimum of quality link cables.

My gold trilogy rule is the following:

-Top link cables (to get the transparency), bi wiring, WBT Nextgen top binding posts on the amp, WBT bananas (more expensive than the fruits).

-Power optimization (respect of power phase, dedicated seperated lines, avoid (bad) multiplugs, power filters and power cables). Furutech power plugs.

-Vib' cancelling accesories (furniture + X levels of vib' cancelling, incl. carbon-kevlar plates, Golden sound ceramic cones + counter cones, Fadel Amethyst...)


And then your system works and the differences between this power cable, this link cable, this power filter become obvious... each power cable has its sound signature and even the best of the world (Nordost Valhalla) retrieves something to the music.
The better a power cable it is, the less it downgrade. But bad ones may really degrade or color the sound, eat dynamic just like bad power filters or regulator or anything.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanalei mike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Steve, they are random because I am trying to make the point that almost everything in Hi-fi has the potential to affect sound quality, so why not power cables? Isn't it a possibility?

Everything doesn't have the potential of affecting sound quality. Some things improve sound, some things make sound worse, and others make no difference at all. A cable is intended to conduct electricity efficiently and without interference. It isn't difficult to accomplish that. Radio Shack cables do just as good a job as well designed high end boutique cables. If a cable changes the sound, it's a crummy cable, no matter how much it cost. There are ways to adjust frequency response. Swapping randomly hobbled wires in and out is not a good way to do that.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolida302 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The people who really hear the differences are those who own transparent systems.

I've noticed that the people who hear differences are generally those who reject controlled testing procedures. That should tell you something about the legitimacy of their observations.

See ya
Steve

 

[hanalei mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif . If a cable changes the sound, it's a crummy cable, no matter how much it cost. See ya Steve

Steve,

How do you know it is not the cheap radioshack cable which has changed the sound? Why is the sound from these cables the reference of the true sound and all the other cables are changing it for the worst? Maybe all the other cables are changing the sound from the radioshack sound, true, but perhaps they are changing it by revealing more of the true music which is actually recorded on the disc? I would consider this to be a better cable, not a crummy cable. Of course neither of us have any way to prove our points, but it is possible that radioshack products are not the last word in detail, resolution and transparency.

Mike