[thomas]

I don't know why people always say the HD-600's are difficult to drive. As a high impedance, high sensitivity, almost purely resistive headphone, it is the EASIEST headphone to drive in my collection, including Koss a/200 (decent to drive, but needs very clean source), Grado SR-80 (more difficult- power hungrey), and Sony e888 (real b*tCh- it sucks way too much current).... 300 ohm impedance means the amp has to source next to no current, which makes it very easy to drive, as long as the gain/voltage is high enough...

Quote:

It's nice that you can feed opamps 15V. But will they really be able to swing 15V on the HD600? I don't think so So how many volts can a diy cmoy actually swing?

Assumming its +/- 15V, the opamps will probably feed 12-14V peak to peak. But that is WAY more than enough to fry the Senns. (according to manufacturer power handling)

the actual voltage/gain needed is much less than you think to drive the senns to deafening levels... I listen with well less than 1 volt going in... probably closer to 0.5V... That's less than 1mW of power... Now some people will obviously listen louder than me, but i can't see why peopel say you need hundereds of mW to drive them properly...For headroom on transients?!? I'd rather get 5mW of clean class A power than a watt of distorted crap...

Which brings me to my point, Sennheisers definately do need an amp to sound good, but its because it needs the higher quality of a dedicated amp, not for its power... The HD-600's has a high resolution, which means it will reveal any distortion/problems in the amp. So what you need for the senns is quality, not quantity.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Sennheisers definately do need an amp to sound good, but its because it needs the higher quality of a dedicated amp, not for its power... The HD-600's has a high resolution, which means it will reveal any distortion/problems in the amp. So what you need for the senns is quality, not quantity.

Comparing the W2002 to the HD600, I found that:
1. the HD600 was NEVER as high resolution as the W2002
2. the W2002 didn't lose as much performance as you moved down to smaller amplifiers
(note: there are other valid reasons to prefer the HD600)

Comparing the Etymotic ER-4P to the HD600, I found that:
1. the HD600 was NEVER as high resolution as the Etymotic
2. the Etymotic didn't lose as much performance as you moved down to smaller amplifiers
(note: there are other valid reasons to prefer the HD600)

Comparing the Beyerdynamic DT931 to the HD600, I found that:
1. the DT931 didn't lose as much performance as you moved down to smaller amplifiers
2. they were very similar in performance on the Max and Melos, though they each had slight edges in some aspects over the other
(note: I never got to hear the 931 on the RKV)

I'm not an engineer and I can't explain why this is happening but I think it's a little unreasonable to dismiss these observations outright especially considering there are many others who have noticed similar.

 

[slindeman]

Go figure. I thought my Grados actually benefited more going from a 9V "47" amp to the Corda than my HD600s did, although it was quite noticeable in both cases. The better quality components made a difference to both headphones, and the Corda had more current drive which helped the Grados out a lot.

Like Thomas I've never thought of the HD600 as that difficult to drive once I built my first dedicated headphone amp. Perhaps some of you listen at extreme volume levels. My volume level is such that the HD600s get around 0.2-0.5 volts. I wish headroom had a Little premium without the more power so I could do a Little vs. Little More Power vs. Little Premium and hear the differences with HD600, to see if the power supply or opamps make the most difference.

I know KurtW didn't find a huge difference between the Corda and MOH, and I'm pretty sure the HD600 was involved in that comparison. Below the Corda's pricepoint there aren't any commercial opamp based headphone amps that I know of with a proper +-15V power supply. I'm not sure what kind of voltage swing or current capability the budget tube amps have. Which exact smaller amplifiers do you mean?

 

[kelly]

I'm not remotely a Grado fan and haven't listened enough to offer any opinion at all there.

More specifically, on the Max I slightly preferred the HD600 to the DT931. On the Corda HA-1, I strongly prefer the DT931 to the HD600. On the Melos, it was about a toss up--maybe slightly leaning toward 931, tube tweaking might have an influence there. On the Little, I think I'd prefer a Sony V6, even. On the Creek, likewise.

 

[shivohum]

I'm going to interject here. I've heard the HD580 and/or the HD600 on an Onkyo receiver, an Airhead, a Total Airhead, a JMT amp, an MG-Head, and a micro-ZOTL.

Frankly, I disagree that the HD600 needs an incredibly expensive amp to show its stuff. I think a simple, $100 amp is plenty. PLENTY. Everything above that is just frosting. The expensive amps are certainly nicer in some ways, but the tube amps tend to be euphonic -- that's why they sound so different from each other; they're acting, to some extent at least, in my opinion, as equalizers. This comes with issues of its own, though of course tube amps may sound at times heavenly.

With solid state amps, even the expensive ones, the differences tend to be considerably more subtle (though not necessarily less valuable).

Anyway, the HD580/HD600 is plenty enjoyable with even a simple amplifier, and the people who don't like it, in my opinion cannot tolerate the slightly laid-back character that is one of its attributes. Yes, it has the slightly laid-back mids. I'm afraid that this is why it sounds so terrible so often in quick comparisons with other headphones -- it doesn't leap out at you with ferocity.

And I'm not saying that this isn't a flaw, but in my opinion it is not a flaw that interferes with your musical pleasure over the long-term.

Many other headphones make much more egregious mistakes, so that while their brilliance may shine in one area, they are not good long-time companions. This is not the case with the 580/600.

The reason that so many people get dissatisfied with the HD600 is that they live on sites like this, where the constant discussions of something better feed a grass-is-greener feeling. I'm hardly an exception. And when the HD600 doesn't give a "wow" sensation in comparison to many other headphones whose faults take longer to discern, that doesn't help matters.

This is, of course, not to say that the 580/600 are perfect -- they are far from it. But I wanted to share a larger perspective.

 

[dvw]

Like I said before. Power alone can't determine the quality of the amplifier or the sound characteristic. Tube amp will sound different than solid state.

Other factors influencing include but not limited to:
S/N ratio
slew rate
power supply
output stage design

If you look at the link I posted, the power vs impedance curve alone posted by PRR is different just based on different design. And this is just one varible. There are many other variable including personal preference. Well, at least with headphone listening, you don't get room effect into the equation.

 

[shivohum]

Oh, by the way, to clarify, when I said that the HD600 didn't need an incredibly expensive amp to show its stuff, I meant that the vast majority of its potential is fulfilled even at the inexpensive-amp level.

*For sheer musical enjoyment*, I would put the HD600 up against Etys or Grados or what have you, even with a "cheap" amp. There is a liquidity and coherency to the sound that is easily, in its own way, a match for anything else I've heard. Again, other headphones may have higher resolution or a more forward midrange, etc.

 

[Driftwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D I usually keep quiet about this topic even though I was one of the early adopters in believing the HD600s are quite UNremarkable out of entry-level amps, but stopped pushing this stance as *so* many people do go this route with Senns and they don't like to hear it. But like kelly, I think that if people want an affordable synergized combo they could do better. But if you want *decent* performance now and know without a doubt you will eventually couple the Senn HD600 with a viscious beefy and probably wallet draining amp...than do so. However if you do not plan on doing the amp upgrade (and surely not everyone has intention to obtain a viscious beefy amp) for the price you pay for that *decent* performance...IMO I think my DT931 + Szekeres combos would absolutely ream it. Unfortunately I don't know how well the HD600 would works with a Szekeres.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

The HD-600 is a remarkable headphone in my opinion, but it does in fact seem to be influenced more than any other headphone that I know of by what is driving it.


Joe,
I don't think numbers mean much to most people here. They might be a nice starting point if you are designing an amp to pair with a particular headphone, but in the end, for all the numbers and for all the proofs that cables don't matter, or that a certain combination of factors in an amp should pair best with the HD-600, it doesn't make any difference to what your ears tell you.

If plug my HD-600 into audiovox boombox and if it sounds better than the sha-1, I'd use the boombox instead, specs be damned.

Driftwood

 

[slindeman]

Quote:

On the Corda HA-1, I strongly prefer the DT931 to the HD600.

Is that with both headphones plugged into the 0 ohm jack? The DT931 will sound better out of the 120 ohm jack than the 0 ohm jack according to everyone that has tried it. The reason I ask is because I'm fairly certain both the jacks on the Max are 0 ohm output impedance, and so the DT931 would likely sound bright according to those in the know. This alone could account for your preferences. Perhaps you just prefer the DT931 as long as it is from a 120 ohm jack? Just a thought.

Quote:

On the Little, I think I'd prefer a Sony V6, even.

I'd be interested to know what other Little owners and Headroom itself consider the best headphone, $250 or under, to pair with the Little. I'm sure you'd be in the minority with the V6. I bet the HD600 or HD580 would get mentioned often.

Quote:

Power alone can't determine the quality of the amplifier or the sound characteristic.

I don't think anyone is saying it does. Claims have been made that less expensive amplifiers don't sound as good with HD600 because they are not powering the HD600 sufficiently. All I (and Thomas) are pointing out is that it likely has little to do with the power since the HD600s don't require much power. Probably any of the tube amps, and definitely any decent modern opamp based heaphone amp running with a +-15V power supply will have zero problems handling the HD600s power requirements. At my volume levels a gain of 3 and +- 6V is more than enough.

Quote:

*For sheer musical enjoyment*, I would put the HD600 up against Etys or Grados or what have you, even with a "cheap" amp.

I agree.

Quote:

I don't think numbers mean much to most people here.

If true I find it disheartening.

/me gets on soapbox

Numbers do indeed matter. If a headphone jack has an output impedance over 200 I can tell you right now the HD600 will sound muddy on it. Whether you like mud or not, I don't care. You are welcome to waste your time and money finding out for yourself. But I do care to know something of what it will sound like before I buy it.

Likewise an amp with low current capability (i.e. most tube amps) will clip badly on Grados. Will you spend the money and try it anyway just to see? I won't. First I will verify that my tube amp has the current drive necessary for Grados.

An opamp based headphone amplifier running off of 3V (i.e. most portables) will sound lifeless with HD600. Yet many people try to drive them with portables and get discouraged. Looking at the science and numbers would prevent the discouragement from ever happening. Chalk another one up for the numbers.

Numbers can save you money and hassle--save you from buying something that will most definitely not match well with your Panasonic portable, your receiver's heapdhone jack, your MG Head OTL, or your JMT cmoy amp. I'm not quite sure how extra knowledge--knowledge that can save you time and money--is something to be lightly dismissed with "it doesn't make any difference to what your ears tell you." Frankly my ears can do without lifeless, muddy, clipped sound. Thankfully there are ways other than a 30 day money back guarantee to avoid such sound.

If you don't trust numbers to help guide your decisions, why trust reviews either? I don't see you saying "I don't think reviews mean much to most people here." Why is that? Reviews aren't your ears any more than numbers are. Both reviews and equations are written by humans. Both are equally fallible in that neither can provide the complete sonic picture, neither is an absolute guarantee of you liking or disliking a component. Yet combining both has guided me to wise purchasing decisions and much sonic pleasure. For that I'm very thankful.

/me gets off soapbox

 

[dstroot]

I got into head-fi looking for a travel solution - I ended up buying a Total Airhead and Etys. Long story short: I LOVED it. The detail! The clarity! Unbelievable!

It wasn't long until I wanted that same sound at home, all the time, without having to stick Etys in my ears - just not practical at home.

So after reading the boards I concluded I need high-end phones to come close to the Etys and purchased a Corda and Senn HD600 combo from Jan. I thought the Senns would match the Etys in quality and the Corda would kick the pants off the Airhead.

Well, I was wrong!!!! I was very disappointed with the "veiled" sound compared to Etys (I know THAT comment will kick up dust). Through a couple upgrades I ended up with a Melos SHA Gold to drive the Senns - and drive them it does!

But it took over $1k of equipment to match the simple TAH and Ety combo I started with. Of course this is all in my humble opinion. But the moral of the story for me at least is that the Senns really do need some "juice" pushing them. Don't get me wrong - I kept the Corda because I think it's a great amp as well and really shines driving the Etys.

Had I started out with the Senns and the Corda I may have simply stopped and said this is great! Unfortunately I began my journey with Etys...

Do I think the Senns are hard to drive? Yes I guess I do - I'd love to hear them on a Max.

 

[AndreYew]

Correlation does not imply causation.

--Andre

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Amen to slindeman's keynote speech!

Question to all those who like their HD600 with expensive tube amps:

Do most phones sound more forward with these tube amps anyway? As someone mentioned earlier, these tube amps may be acting as equalizers (of course not *just* as equalizers! Now quit yapping

)

 

[ai0tron]

" Perhaps some of you listen at extreme volume levels"

IMO the HD600's will show great improvement at low volume levels with the addition of an amp. Which is in truth my main reason for pursuing the amp upgrade route. I needed a solid bass foundation withuot jacking the volume knob around like a pimp back slapping his ho's. So I added a Melos and voila' bass foundation at any volume level.