Just dont understand. How can they believe an Ethernet cable can improve sound?

[Ghoostknight]

Standard Ethernet 10/100/1000 megabit (and even 2.5Gb up to 10Gb in many cases) uses UTP cat 5 cable. That’s Unshielded, Twisted Pair cable. That pair of wires carries the two differential data signals. So by definition, the output of an Ethernet switch MUST be ground/shield isolated from the downstream receiving Ethernet port because there is no ground/shield connection, unless of course you think the ground/shield is somehow magically travelling between Ethernet devices though the air or some audiophile 5th dimension?!

i think cat 6 is quite common too, (and unsure of the ethernet implementation of music streamers for example) so maybe some changes people are hearing are just because the shield of the ethernet cable is connected to the receiving device

and im still unsure about the middle-points of the galvanic isolation on the input side connected to ground... and effectiveness of the galvanic isolation to noise, a transformer should transfer noise just fine, maybe a bit attentuated...

Oh dear, the image you posted appears to show a schematic of the protection employed for POE (Power Over Ethernet). So NONE of your post was relevant to Ethernet, unless you’ve got a POE switch/router, a DAC, streamer or computer which is powered over Ethernet and the POE protection doesn’t work properly! Was that just an inadvertent error or a deliberate attempt to mislead? Hmmm.

well no, i didnt think about POE, tho on shielded cat6 cables the shield is still connected to ground

 

[bigshot]

I think he isn’t deliberately trying to mislead. I think he’s in over his head and he’s scrambling to google up a reply that he doesn’t fully understand himself. His ego won’t allow him to admit he’s wrong, so he just flails and flails. We’ve seen that before. Maybe with him even.

 

[gregorio]

so maybe some changes people are hearing

What changes that people are hearing? “Argumentum ad Populam” is invalid because it’s a fallacy, it’s even more ridiculous if there is no “ad Populam”, IE. You’ve provided zero reliable evidence that even a single person can actually hear these Ethernet switch/cable differences, let alone a “Populam”!

are just because the shield of the ethernet cable is connected to the receiving device

But the audiophile claims of audible differences are not restricted to only POE switches or only cat 6 cables. And, even if there were noise on the shield of the cat 6 cable that somehow/magically bypasses the data buffers and other protections (which there isn’t!), then:

1. That noise would accumulate through successive switches and the internet wouldn’t work. And,
2. The solution isn’t an expensive audiophile switch or audiophile Ethernet cable, it’s a cheaper, standard cat 5 cable (that everyone else uses), which doesn’t have a shield and therefore obviously is not connected to the receiving device!

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

But the audiophile claims of audible differences are not restricted to only POE switches or only cat 6 cables. And, even if there were noise on the shield of the cat 6 cable that somehow/magically bypasses the data buffers and other protections (which there isn’t!), then:

im
1. not saying every single audiophile is right with his claim
2. shield/ground doesnt go through a databuffer, but its probably effecting the receiving device overall and making its ground "more dirty", which might affect spdif outputs on music streamer for example, or a over usb connected dac

. The solution isn’t an expensive audiophile switch or audiophile Ethernet cable, it’s a cheaper, standard cat 5 cable (that everyone else uses), which doesn’t have a shield and therefore obviously is not connected to the receiving device!

atleast we can agree on that not worrying about it is not the "best" solution...
tho there is still room to worry about the middle-points of the inputside from the galvanic isolation connected to ground, dataline wise, and it would be interesting to know of what noise level we talk about after CMR (also what non common mode noise is "common" on ethernet cables...)

 

[gregorio]

im
1. not saying every single audiophile is right with his claim

But you are claiming that at least some audiophiles are “right”, apparently 80% of audiophiles according to you. However, you’ve provided not a single shred of reliable evidence that even one audiophile can actually hear these differences, despite the fact we’ve been routinely transferring audio over Ethernet for 30 years or so.

2. shield/ground doesnt go through a databuffer,

Exactly, so how does it magically affect the output of the data buffers?

but its probably effecting the receiving device overall and making its ground "more dirty",

What reliable evidence do you have for that assertion and how would it happen with cat 5 cable which doesn’t even have a ground connection?

which might affect spdif outputs on music streamer for example, or a over usb connected dac

I’ve measured SPDIF outputs on sources receiving Ethernet audio data and on usb DACs connected to them, there are no effects and I’ve heard of no one else who has measured any. What reliable evidence do you have to the contrary?

atleast we can agree on that not worrying about it is not the "best" solution...

No, we can’t agree on that. “Not worrying about it” (some sort of imaginary ground/shield problem) is of course definitely the best solution and it’s even more the best solution when using cat 5 cable which doesn’t have a shield or ground!

tho there is still room to worry about the middle-points of the inputside from the galvanic isolation connected to ground

Why, you can’t hear those middle-points! The only “point” you can hear is the output of your speakers/HPs and they are of course reliant on the output of your DAC. So if there’s no data corruption (which there isn’t) and if there’s no effect on the output of the DAC (which there also isn’t) then there’s no difference to hear and obviously no “room to worry”!

G

 

[A Jedi]

There's so much noise in home AC earth/ground that even IF the switch was adding some, it wouldn't mean s***t. You want to reduce ground noise? Unplug everything in your house and ask the neighbors to do the same.

Otherwise, you're chasing a flea fart in a tornado.

 

[71 dB]

At least we can agree on that not worrying about it is not the "best" solution... tho there is still room to worry about blah blah...

Let me guess:

The only way to not worry about these things is to buy insanely priced snake oil high end audio products that claim to have solved these problems?

 

[Ghoostknight]

Exactly, so how does it magically affect the output of the data buffers?

maybe not at all and a other cause is the culprit for people reporting differences in switches

What reliable evidence do you have for that assertion and how would it happen with cat 5 cable which doesn’t even have a ground connection?

i never stated that, tho with a cat6 cable which might get bought since people think its superior in this regard
and we can probably start arguing about wether shielded or unshielded ethernet cable is better... atleast "audiophile" wise

I’ve measured SPDIF outputs on sources receiving Ethernet audio data and on usb DACs connected to them, there are no effects and I’ve heard of no one else who has measured any. What reliable evidence do you have to the contrary?

like i said before, i know it cant be measured in the dac output, tho it still seems to matter

Why, you can’t hear those middle-points! The only “point” you can hear is the output of your speakers/HPs and they are of course reliant on the output of your DAC. So if there’s no data corruption (which there isn’t) and if there’s no effect on the output of the DAC (which there also isn’t) then there’s no difference to hear and obviously no “room to worry”!

so in fact these middle points are connected to ground? so its not truly galcanicly isolated but you didnt answer this before to not make it look like there might be a possible reason?

well for me it stays, power supply matters (probably noise is one reason) and other stuff most likely also noise-wise, i dont think ethernet is any different

There's so much noise in home AC earth/ground that even IF the switch was adding some, it wouldn't mean s***t. You want to reduce ground noise? Unplug everything in your house and ask the neighbors to do the same.

Otherwise, you're chasing a flea fart in a tornado.

yes but it can be reduced and from my expierence each noise reduction (for example ac filters, better power supplys, usb filters, better shielded cables) will have an additive effect on sound quality

tho i agree, we can start discussing how much the differences might be with other ethernet cables/switches, i actually havent really tried ethernet stuff yet, i just noticed a while ago that standard 0815 ethernet ("normal cheap" cables/switches) sound worse to a (cheap) wlan stick, and it makes sense, since its one cable directly to the music setup less to worry about, unless the wlan stick throws out more noise (which is probably also easier to fix than ethernet)


--

one cheap solution might be to use a ethernet isolator like those https://www.emosystems.com/network-isolators/ and not worry about switches, since i believe data will be fine
these isolator for medical application also show that standard ethernet is not "perfect", eg it helps with ground loops even if everyone states isolated
tho im unsure how much noise is actually filtered with those isolators, but it would be probably worth a try before trying to improve the switch...

 

[Ghoostknight]

Let me guess:

The only way to not worry about these things is to buy insanely priced snake oil high end audio products that claim to have solved these problems?

no maybe not, tho i think some audiophile switches might improve on noise but maybe the better/cheaper solution are network isolators/fiber/wlan

 

[A Jedi]

like i said before, i know it cant be measured in the dac output, tho it still seems to matter

Let me ask you a simple question:

If audiophile switch makers have figured out something that no other engineer has, why are they bothering with this? Why are they not doing work for the military where they can make billions? I guess because they're all anti-war hippies?

Or have they transcended the rest of humanity and money is not an incentive. They're only interested in selling a hundred switches/year - just enough to put food on table?

 

[redrol]

I made a scam video a bit ago. Enjoy

 

[A Jedi]

I made a scam video a bit ago. Enjoy

I applaud scammers actually. Taking advantage of people unwilling to educate themselves is not actually "taking advantage". It's a valuable service. The "victims" are not only willing but happy with the outcome.

 

[jjazzy]

It getting to the point I cant take it. Its getting pretty ridiculous. There is a thread about ethernet cables and the improvement they are all noticing in the sound quality. I just cant understand the mass delusions they are all having and lack of understanding how these things work.

The same counts for hifi switches (they sell them for crazy amounts of money (there not more then 25 dollar switches!) and then the’re not even managed one’s total craziness)

I work in IT for many many years now, understand the total basics, untill the basics of OSI layers.

And it’s impossible high end gold heavenly plated utp gives any benefit, that’s not the way it works, it is packet processed data, with build in crc checks. And eventough looks real time, it isn’t and never will. (Not even udp)

 

[redrol]

I applaud scammers actually. Taking advantage of people unwilling to educate themselves is not actually "taking advantage". It's a valuable service. The "victims" are not only willing but happy with the outcome.

We have to be better than that around here. BS will be destroyed. Also the owner of that company posted he was going to sue me right after I posted that, then when a ton of comments were laughing at him, he deleted it all and vanished.

 

[A Jedi]

We have to be better than that around here.

I used to think people can be "saved". I gave up. I don't condone taking advantage of innocent people. I do however condone taking advantage of willing people. When one fights for the right to be conned, I think the best you can do for them is oblige.