[Oistrakh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkelly /img/forum/go_quote.gif None of these guys move me as much as Maxim Vengerov. I honestly think he is the greatest violinist of all-time and really without question. He's got flawless techinique and the sound he gets puts him in a class of one. I sometmes think of Vengerov as an Oistrach (my second or third favorite) with much better tone and a more convincing emotional delivery). Not everything he does is great but some of his recordings are untouchable. His Shostaokoivich and Prokofiev Concetos are so good that they have reset the standard for playing these pieces. At least for me. Perlman would be another favorite.

Maxim Vengerov, greatest violinist of all time? LOL! Certaintly not among music critics!


I guess you must like histrionics... Just because someone moves around more doesn't mean he is better than another person... Oh, its kind of hard to compare violinists of today and yesterday because of the inferior recording systems during the time of Heifetz, elman, etc...

 

[bkelly]

I didn't see Vengerov perform for several years after I first heard him so how much he moves around was never a concern of mine and still isn't. I know others are troubled by that but its no concern of mine. It's his playing that I am moved by.

As a huge fan o Vengerov's I have read everythign that I can get my hands on including several foreign language interviews and I can tell you for absolute certain that the idea that his the at the very least the greatest vioinist of his generation is common. At this point he is still so young that I am sure that not every critic wants to jump in at this stage and claim that he is the geatest of all-time yet but that is cetainly coming.

None of this is meant to offend anyone. If you believe otherwise that is fine by me. Buy and listen to whatever recordings you like

 

[puiah11]

I had the chance to see Bell and Perlman while at UM at hill auditorium.

Bell: Flashy. Young. Writes his own cadenzas. Tone dead.

Perlamn: Indescribable. Tone, release, arch, interpretation. All first quality.

Perhaps Bell will even out with age. When I heard him he was much too over the top.

I was scorned by pretty much everyone in the audience because they all gave him a standing ovation and I didn't. I'm usually right.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oistrakh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Joshua Bell-plays too cheesily, I don't like the way he "dances" when playing, and I don't like his vibrate Itzhak Perlman-Great violinist, great technique, great tone, all around awesome! My favorite is Itzhak Perlman, his technique is brilliant, and is extremely musical.

I agree 5 million percent.

 

[Ruggerio79]

sentence as legends like Perlman, Heifetz and Oistrakh? is this a joke?

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruggerio79 /img/forum/go_quote.gif sentence as legends like Perlman, Heifetz and Oistrakh? is this a joke?

Agree!!!

Bell is a violinist whose bad taste often trumps his talent; enough said.

Perlman is one for the ages. Years from now people will still be talking about his work so it's silly to say that he's too schmaltzy or denigrate his talent because he falls into the romantic tradition. His Beethoven Kreutzer, in every recording is immaculate. His tone is big and beautiful and his intonation always perfectly centered. He's one of the top fiddlers of any age and we are lucky to be able to hear him play.

Vengerov is also a great violinist, but not in every repetoire. He shines in the Russians, and especially the moderns like Shostakovich and Prokofieff. He's also great in those showpieces that build every virtuoso's repetoire -- Bruch, Sarasate, Ysaye, Lalo, etc. He also has a talent for self-promotion and myth building. He's good but not as versatile as some others. I hate him in Beethoven and I don't even know if he's ever even tried to record Bach or Mozart! Also, the man's a pain to watch because his facial expressions remind me of someone having a colonoscopy.

Oistrakh was a truly great violinist. Need anyone say more?

Grumiaux's Mozart is far and away my favorite; there was no repetoire he couldn't attack. I love just about anything he ever recorded. Sweet tone, big tone, lyrical, and dramatic where necessary.

I'm surprised no one mentions Milstein! Certainly on a par with the greatest. Warmer than Heifetz but no less the virtuoso.

Heifetz has always been a great favorite since hearing him do the Tchaikowsky in icy passion. For me, Heifetz's recording is the benchmark for the Tchaik., cuts and all. His Sibelius violin concerto is also my benchmark.

Menuhin was a great violinist, but somewhere along the way he developed some serious problems which pushed him towards conducting. The sad thing is that most of his best work was recorded before stereo and high fidelity so we have at best a pale shadow of what his music must have been like.

Midori was a bit overexposed but I can't forget how wonderful she was when she first burst on the scene. When she played Tanglewood in '85 or '86, she broke her E string and was loaned the concertmaster's violin. When she broke that e string, another violinist loaned her his. She went on to complete her program brilliantly. The next day, the NY Times headline read: Girl, 14, Conquers Tanglewood With Three Violins. Her talent has not disappeared, and her work since the late 90s (after a brief withdrawal from the concert circuit) has revealed new maturity and depth. Ferbose, if you haven't heard her recently, if you get those tickets, go and be surprised. She's a mature artist now. Try listening to her recording of Franck's and Elgar's violin sonatas with Robt. McDonald to get an idea of how she's developed.

 

[bkelly]

As expected bunnyears response is just about as well reasoned and thoughtful as you can get. Other than my preference for Vengerov's Tchaikovsky, Sibelius and his Mendelsohn concertos over all others I prettry much agree with her.

Midori - I am not an expert on her music and she plays a lot of material I don't much care for but I think that some people have been a little too hard on her. I think she has had her ups and downs and that has sort of hurt her but she has done several things that I liked very much (especailly the Mendelsohn Concerto) and I still think she should be considered a major talent and one who may yet live up to her earliest promises.

Joshua Bell. I love his recording with the Massenet, Chausson and Saraste pieces very, very but some others I have heard didn't hit me nearly as hard.

I also don't think he is going about his carreer in a manner that will lead him to virtuoso status.

Milstein, has a musical voice that really speaks to me at times. What I know of him so far I have been very impressed with. Same with a few other players like Grumiaux, Szerning and Francescatti -- especially Szerning at times.

I would like to put in a good word for Ivry Giltis as well as Erich Friedman. These two are much less well known that any of the others but both have impressed me. Erich Friedman's version of Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto was my favorite most of my life. Vengerov changed that but Friedmans's still holds as a masterful recording. It probably was never released anywhere other than on the Time Life Classical Series originally realeased in the early 1960's. He played with the Boston orchestra.

Gitlis has got to be one of the best all around players ever. He only has a few recordings in print anymore but they are wonderful and probablyu just short of being truly exceptional.

Menuhin - When he was young he was so brilliant - almost otherwordly.

 

[Oistrakh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by puiah11 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I had the chance to see Bell and Perlman while at UM at hill auditorium. Bell: Flashy. Young. Writes his own cadenzas. Tone dead. Perlamn: Indescribable. Tone, release, arch, interpretation. All first quality.

Too bad Perlman tickets cost a lot of money these days... I saw joshua bell play the tchaikovsky and listened to the new recordings, and was not impressed at all by his phrasing and "rubato"...ugh...

I loved Perlman's Kreutzer.... Best one I've heard so far... Listen to Bell and Shaham's recordings of the Wieniawski Concerti and tell me which is better...

I also think Gil Shaham deserves more attention than Joshua Bell...

 

[puiah11]

^ I think on both instances I was comped because I knew people on the inside or had connections. I usually was drunk 1/2 the time @ UM and just showed up at concerts with my gf or other music majors.

So, never really had to pay.

lol

(I almost auditioned for the UM school of music but my financier (father) basically said 'uh, no.' Guess he didn't approve of the major and I had to come packin back to cali. Oh well.)

I do have a funny anecdote about the Perlman concert. There was this giant flower arangement that kept falling over during his performance. Stupidly, they kept ending the current piece and going off stage and fixing the flower arangement (propping it back up) and then perlman and his indian looking piano player came out, then started, then it would fall again, left, came back, left, came back.

They did this about 3-4 times before I had to leave to go to choir rehersal.

But what I did hear of Perlman was great. I think it's probably because he is jewish that he has the training of that line.

Bell is american, mother jewish, father emeritus professor at IU.

Perlman's from Isreal. Trained in Europe.

It's kind of like comparing an Italian trained Opera singer to an American.

American's don't have enough history/sorrow/culture to emote the violin to resonate.

Bell seems to be technically gifted, so he can have that. But I would like to see him take time off and study in europe.

André Rieu is the shiz-nit. (ok just kidding)

 

[bkelly]

Oistrakh,

I got an email notifiation that sadi you asked on this thread whether or not I had heard any of David Oistrakh's recordings but I don't see it posted here. Maybe it will show up later.

Anyhow, as I said in an earlier post Oistrakh is one of my three favorite violinists along with Perlman and of course Vengerov. I think Vengerov sounds very much like Oistrakh but with a bit more drama, a different way of pacing himself and a much better sound. Other than that it is hard to think that anyone plays more violin than David Oistrakh. As it is I am in love with everything that is Russian when it comes to music. Probably 70% of what I listen to is Russian in some way. It's either a Russian composer or a Russian performer.

Anyhow, I assume that you agree with my high praise of David Oistrakh.

 

[Oistrakh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkelly /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oistrakh, I got an email notifiation that sadi you asked on this thread whether or not I had heard any of David Oistrakh's recordings but I don't see it posted here. Maybe it will show up later. Anyhow, as I said in an earlier post Oistrakh is one of my three favorite violinists along with Perlman and of course Vengerov. I think Vengerov sounds very much like Oistrakh but with a bit more drama, a different way of pacing himself and a much better sound. Other than that it is hard to think that anyone plays more violin than David Oistrakh. As it is I am in love with everything that is Russian when it comes to music. Probably 70% of what I listen to is Russian in some way. It's either a Russian composer or a Russian performer. Anyhow, I assume that you agree with my high praise of David Oistrakh.

Sorry, that was edited out when I saw your previous comments on Oistrakh...

What do you think of Heifetz?

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by puiah11 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perlman's from Isreal. Trained in Europe.

That's if you think New York is in Europe. Perlman trained in the Juilliard School with Ivan Galamian, as did Pinchas Zukerman, Jaime Laredo, and Paul Zukofsky and Sergiu Luca.

http://www.emiclassics.com/artists/biogs/ipeb.html

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's if you think New York is in Europe. Perlman trained in the Juilliard School with Ivan Galamian, as did Pinchas Zukerman, Jaime Laredo, and Paul Zukofsky and Sergiu Luca. http://www.emiclassics.com/artists/biogs/ipeb.html

At last! The voice of reason.

Btw, despite the opinion of many wingnuts, the last time I looked NYC is still in the USA.

 

[puiah11]

Quote:

He began to study in Tel Aviv after hearing the violin being played on the radio. ... Perlman studied at the Academy of Music in Tel Aviv before moving to the United States to study at the Juilliard School with Ivan Galamian and Dorothy DeLay.

Perlman Line of Succession
Perlman (b. Isreal 1945) | Taught by Ivan Galamian & Dorothy DeLay

Dorothy DeLay (b. USA 1917) | Taught by ?

Ivan Galamian (b. ~Iran 1903) | Taught by Konstantin Mostras
Konstantin Mostras (b. ? 1886) | Taught by Leopold Auer
Leopold Auer (b. Hungary 1845) | Taught by ~Joseph Joachim
Joseph Joachim (b. Austria 1831) | Taughy by Joseph Böhm
Joseph Böhm ?
...
Violin creation (b. Italy ~1500s)

Bell Line of Succession
Bell (b. USA 1967) | Taught by Josef Gingold
Josef Gingold (b. 1909 Poland) | Taught by ~Eugène Ysaÿe
Eugène Ysaÿe (b. 1858 Belgium) | Taught by Joseph Massart, Henryk Wieniawski, & Henri Vieuxtemps.

Joseph Massart (b. 1811 Belgium) | Taught by Rodolphe Kreutzer
Rodolphe Kreutzer (b. 1766 France) | Taught by Anton Stamitz
Anton Stamitz (b. ~1752.5 Germany) | Taughy by Christian Cannabich
Christian Cannabich (b. ~1731 Germany) | Taughy by ~Niccolò Jommelli
Niccolò Jommelli (b. 1714 Italy) | Taught by Francesco Feo
Francesco Feo (b. 1691 Italy) | Taughy by ?

Henryk Wieniawski (b. 1835 Poland) | Taught by ?

Henri Vieuxtemps (b. 1820 Belgium) | Taught by Charles de Bériot
Charles de Bériot (b. 1802 Belguim) | Taught by Jean-Francois Tiby
Jean-Francois Tiby (b. ? ?) | Taught by Giovanni Battista Viotti
Giovanni Battista Viotti (b. Italy 1755) | Taught by Gaetano Pugnani
Gaetano Pugnani (b. Italy 1731) | Taught by ~Giuseppe Tartini
Giuseppe Tartini (b. Italy 1692) | Self Taught
...
Violin creation (b. Italy ~1500s)

So we see that Bell's legacy is much more rooted in Belgian tradition (based on Italian teachings but separated by ~100 years of forget (Italy -> Belgium -> Poland -> USA -> Bell)). Perlamn it's uncertain as he has less ready sources but Perlman is much more far-eastern European reaching to Asia, Middle East, and Russia (Austria -> Hungary -> Iran -> Isreal -> USA -> Perlman).

Bell has a long line of Belgian successors. He is under the indirect tutelage of Italy's progenitors, but should return as I have suggested to find the violin roots he lacks, so it seems. Imo.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by puiah11 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perlman Line of Succession Perlman (b. Isreal 1945) | Taught by Ivan Galamian & Dorothy DeLay Dorothy DeLay (b. USA 1917) | Taught by ? Ivan Galamian (b. ~Iran 1903) | Taught by Konstantin Mostras Konstantin Mostras (b. ? 1886) | Taught by Leopold Auer Leopold Auer (b. Hungary 1845) | Taught by ~Joseph Joachim Joseph Joachim (b. Austria 1831) | ... Violin creation (b. Italy ~1500s) Bell Line of Succession Bell (b. USA 1967) | Taught by Josef Gingold Josef Gingold (b. 1909 Poland) | Taught by ~Eugène Ysaÿe Eugène Ysaÿe (b. 1858 Belgium) | Taught by Joseph Massart, Henryk Wieniawski, & Henri Vieuxtemps. Joseph Massart (b. 1811 Belgium) | Taught by Rodolphe Kreutzer Rodolphe Kreutzer (b. 1766 France) | Taught by Anton Stamitz Anton Stamitz (b. ~1752.5 Germany) | Taughy by Christian Cannabich Christian Cannabich (b. ~1731 Germany) | Taughy by ~Niccolò Jommelli Niccolò Jommelli (b. 1714 Italy) | Taught by Francesco Feo Francesco Feo (b. 1691 Italy) | Taughy by ? Henryk Wieniawski (b. 1835 Poland) | Taught by ? Henri Vieuxtemps (b. 1820 Belgium) | Taught by Charles de Bériot Charles de Bériot (b. 1802 Belguim) | Taught by Jean-Francois Tiby Jean-Francois Tiby (b. ? ?) | Taught by Giovanni Battista Viotti Giovanni Battista Viotti (b. Italy 1755) | Taught by Gaetano Pugnani Gaetano Pugnani (b. Italy 1731) | Taught by ~Giuseppe Tartini Giuseppe Tartini (b. Italy 1692) | Self Taught So we see that Bell's legacy is much more rooted in Belgian tradition. Perlamn it's uncertain as he has less ready sources but Perlman is much more far-eastern European reching to Asia, Middle East, and Russia. Bell has a long line of Belgian successors. He is under the indirect tutalte of Italys progenetors, but should return as I have suggested to find the violin roots he lacks, so it seems. Imo.

I don't really understand the point of this as Perlman came to the USA when he was about 12 or 13 years old and then appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show as a child prodigy. That means that most of his education occurred in the USA. In addition, his wife is a born and bred New Yorker; they make their home here in NYC, and have raised their children here and not in Israel. I frequently see him shopping in Zabar's and other shops on Broadway. He teaches at Juilliard and is a frequent guest conductor of the NYPO at Lincoln Center. He has become the quintessential New Yorker so it's really silly not to think of him as an American musician. I think he should be thought of as an American Violinist, not an Eastern European Violinist. Same with Bell.

 

[puiah11]

Imo it does matter. It's critical. A musician can gain knowledge on their own, but their teacher and their teacher's teacher and so on leads to the source or purity.

Sometimes musicians or teachers throw around this type of history as reputation builders or to gain a potential student. Ego aside, imo it's important because it establishes the style. Different cultures produce different interpretations. Teacher's desires or plan or method imprints on the student. Their manner, their choice of words, their choice of music for their young to practice/play/learn, their logic or order of teaching, the technique they teach. Usually it's all handed down generation by generation. Teacher to student.