[tumburu]

But the main thing is, are the Layla's frequency response ruler flat? Besides, it also depends on the position of the bass adjustment dail.

 
 Not a chance on almost any headphone, Layla included (although some say that about UERM, which I didn't hear to this point), but speaking of the iPhone converter, being flat is pretty basic for a converter nowadays. Other factors that come in play are SNR, dynamic range, crostalk etc. Small increments (actualy decrements) in each area add hundreds and even thousands to the price of such a piece of gear.

 

[Danz03]

Ruler flat doesn't work for ear or headphones, I'd love to see someone's face if they heard something that was perfectly flat, but as pointed out in a previous post, even if it were, that would only be with a specific device, not across the board due to impedance fluctuations.

It's much easier for the source to have near ruler flat FR than speakers, IEMs and headphones, and that's mostly the reason why the source is the last thing I'd worry about. The difference between an average and excellent amp is a lot smaller than the difference between an average pair of headphones and a half decent pair. The only source that's important to me would be how the actual music was recorded and mastered. Just my 2 cents.

 

[tumburu]

Makes sense. Indeed, it's a good idea to buy some capable speakers first, but then upgrading the converter/amp will make you appreciate them even more, and is the next thing to do.
 
Listening to Layla from the iPhone, especially after properly eq-ing them, was a very rewarding experience for me, but switching to the Lavry brought the listening experience to a whole new level. Only then you could hear what those drivers can actually do, the level of detail and finesse they are capable of is something else. Even something like the Dragonfly makes the upgrade worth from the iPhone converter IMO. These won't work with iOS devices though...

 

[Danz03]

I don't know, while I'd love to be able to hear more details with my music, sometimes it could really be too much. I mean do I really want to hear every bit of click, pop and crackle in the music?

I was reading the sleeve note printed on the back of a Top 20 chart CD I bought in the mid 80s that read; 'The music on this compact digital disc was originally recorded on analogue equipment. We have attempted to preserve as clearly as possible, the sound of the original recording. Because of its high resolution, the compact disc can reveal limitations of the source tape'. It is true in some way, a lot of the older un-remastered analogue recorded CDs sounded quite bad with a lot of background noise that would have been masked by the noise floor on the black vinyl version. The reason I got Layla was because they were supposed to have flat FR like studio monitors, so I'd like to hear as much details as they were meant to be heard, no more, no less. To me, headphones like the HD800 are over detailed, on not so well recorded, mixed and mastered recordings, they boost the hisses, clicks and crackles that probably wouldn't have been heard in the mixing or mastering studios.

Got the Layla since July and haven't yet really listened to them properly, the sounded quite bad right out of the box, been burning them in ever since, hope they sound as good as how they are supposed to sound.

 

[tumburu]

Fair enough.
 
I hope you will eventually enjoy your Layla, though I can surely empathise with you. For me it was a big disappointment, but after spending a few days with a tone generator and a powerful eq I use in my work, I achieved what I believe to be the best out of these IEMs and I'm keeping them, at least for now.

 

[Danz03]

Even with the bass adjustment? I was a bit disappointed with my Roxanne as I could hear a little bit of phasing distortion in the treble, I'm now hoping my Layla don't have that problem after burning in, even though I understand it is quite hard to get all 4 treble drivers to be totally in sync and produce 100% identical signals.

On a different note, have you tried the Noble Kasier 10? To me, they are the most accurate sounding IEMs I have tried so far.

 

[tumburu]

The problem is not in the bass. With the bass pots you can make them sound pretty flat up to about 1k.
 
Above that area is where the 'fun' begins. Big dips in the 2k and 4k (the severity of the second one is very source dependent) followed by a more or less pronounced peak at 7k (again, depending on the source, it can range from +3  <bearable> to +9 <ridiculous>). There are other inconsistencies across that upper half of the spectrum, but these are the major ones.
 
I have my pair for about 7 months now and I believe if there's such a thing as burn-in on these, it would be safe to assume that it should have had happened in that amount of time, although, to my ears, the sound signature didn't change.

 

[Danz03]

That's interesting! A big dip at 2 and 4k and a 9dB peak at 7k sounds terrible! The 6k spike on my HD800 really hurts my ears. I have not listened to my Layla properly yet, but I couldn't hear any treble spikes so far, with the bass dial at default position in the middle. Would be interesting to hear them with the bass dialed down.

 

[tumburu]

Well, the thing with BA drivers is, they always sound somehow soft. If a dynamic driver has such a peak, it is easily audible and very disturbing for those with sensitivity to high frequencies, just as your impression about the HD800 shows. For me, the k3003, which has a similar treble emphasis as the HD800 (6dB around 5k) is much easier to live with, due to this particularity of the BA drivers.
 
As I already said, the severity of those dips and peaks are source dependent, and Layla is very unpredictable, as many of us noticed already. You might be lucky and get away with a 4-5dB peak, which will become apparent only on bad recordings, where de-essers are not correctly applied, or where drums are too bright etc.
 
To me that's not really a big problem, since I eq my headphones anyway, it's what I do and I have yet to hear a pair that doesn't require that. Some food for thought: the engineers from Shure decided that an eq should be implemented in the amp of the KSE1500. Those guys are into pro audio for some time and that decision speaks volumes about the headphone segment of audio. Even that 3000$ electrostatic unit, the best IEM of 'em all, needs corrections if one wants a truly reference sounding monitor. The only disappointment was, for me, that Layla was advertised as such. But I learned to live with the fact that, to this day, there's no such thing as a truly reference headphone. You have to do it yourself.

 

[speedracer1]

Even with the bass adjustment? I was a bit disappointed with my Roxanne as I could hear a little bit of phasing distortion in the treble, I'm now hoping my Layla don't have that problem after burning in, even though I understand it is quite hard to get all 4 treble drivers to be totally in sync and produce 100% identical signals.

On a different note, have you tried the Noble Kasier 10? To me, they are the most accurate sounding IEMs I have tried so far.

I owned the K10's and I would respectfully disagree with your comment about "accurate".  "Fun sounding" is a far better term to describe the sound.  They are clearly beautifully crafted without question.  The high frequencies (for example) are way too rolled off at the top.  Try listening to a cymbal decay and you will see my point.  As a drummer for 30+ years the K10's drive me a little nuts.  
 
Sincerely,
-Speed 

 

[jelt2359]

  I owned the K10's and I would respectfully disagree with your comment about "accurate".  "Fun sounding" is a far better term to describe the sound.  They are clearly beautifully crafted without question.  The high frequencies (for example) are way too rolled off at the top.  Try listening to a cymbal decay and you will see my point.  As a drummer for 30+ years the K10's drive me a little nuts.  
 
Sincerely,
-Speed 

This is pretty much exactly right

 

[speedracer1]

  Well, the thing with BA drivers is, they always sound somehow soft. If a dynamic driver has such a peak, it is easily audible and very disturbing for those with sensitivity to high frequencies, just as your impression about the HD800 shows. For me, the k3003, which has a similar treble emphasis as the HD800 (6dB around 5k) is much easier to live with, due to this particularity of the BA drivers.
 
As I already said, the severity of those dips and peaks are source dependent, and Layla is very unpredictable, as many of us noticed already. You might be lucky and get away with a 4-5dB peak, which will become apparent only on bad recordings, where de-essers are not correctly applied, or where drums are too bright etc.
 
To me that's not really a big problem, since I eq my headphones anyway, it's what I do and I have yet to hear a pair that doesn't require that. Some food for thought: the engineers from Shure decided that an eq should be implemented in the amp of the KSE1500. Those guys are into pro audio for some time and that decision speaks volumes about the headphone segment of audio. Even that 3000$ electrostatic unit, the best IEM of 'em all, needs corrections if one wants a truly reference sounding monitor. The only disappointment was, for me, that Layla was advertised as such. But I learned to live with the fact that, to this day, there's no such thing as a truly reference headphone. You have to do it yourself.

tumburu,
 
As a professional in the field you have my deepest respect.
 
I just think it's important to highlight as you already stated:"the severity of those dips and peaks are source dependent". 
 
Using the AK 380 even without the detailed modification you mentioned to properly EQ the earpieces the AK 380 does not exhibit the "dips".  The Layla's are in fact quite musical and very enjoyable. The pitch, and timbre is accurate and its amazing how really dam good they sound.  
 
Now I remember that day (not too long ago) when "The only disappointment was, for me, that Layla was advertised as such." I think that was one of the factors that hurt Layla sales.  Other elements include: 1) They are too large for some folks. 2) Difficult to get the fit just right. 3)Expensive.
 
As an owner all of this is true BUT what is the important take-away here is when you finally get past these points they are some of the finest sounding ear pieces that money can buy! As my good friend tumburu mentioned in his previous post:  
"but switching to the Lavry brought the listening experience to a whole new level. Only then you could hear what those drivers can actually do, the level of detail and finesse they are capable of is something else". Well said my friend. 
Sincerely,
-Speed

 

[Danz03]

I owned the K10's and I would respectfully disagree with your comment about "accurate".  "Fun sounding" is a far better term to describe the sound.  They are clearly beautifully crafted without question.  The high frequencies (for example) are way too rolled off at the top.  Try listening to a cymbal decay and you will see my point.  As a drummer for 30+ years the K10's drive me a little nuts.  

Sincerely,
-Speed 

That's strange, my Kaiser 10 didn't have much treble roll off, in fact they made me aware of some high frequencies problems I had with the cymbals in a track I was mixing while listening with them, none of my other IEMs reviewed the problem.

 

[Duncan]

That's strange, my Kaiser 10 didn't have much treble roll off, in fact they made me aware of some high frequencies problems I had with the cymbals in a track I was mixing while listening with them, none of my other IEMs reviewed the problem.

K10 definitely has a soft (or, non fatuiging let's call it) treble compared to other top flight IEMs, which is a shame to me, as their mids is where they excel, but the treble doesn't follow up...

K10 mids with Layla extension, then we will be talking!!

 

[gssjr]

How does the soundstage and detail of Layla compare to other top of the line CIEMs?
 
I'm looking to get my first pair of high-end headphones and was looking at CIEMs because I really want the sound isolation and comfort. Detail and soundstage are important to me.
 
I play drum set (but I don't perform, at least not yet, but I'd still use them while playing drum set) and my favorite genres of music for listening are progressive metal and house/EDM. The headphones would primarily be used for listening to music as opposed to performing music.
 
I'm not really a bass head, but wouldn't mind a lot of bass as long as it's comfortable and doesn't interfere with the rest of the music. My experience with average headphones is that really bassy means muddy or distracting.
 
I currently use circumaural open headphones, Audio Technica ATH-AD700. So I don't have experience with high-end gear but I'd rather get top-of-the line instead of slowly upgrading and spending lots of money over the years. Just get it done right first.
 
So would you guys recommend the Layla or based on what I said is there another CIEM you could recommend?