JDS Labs Element 4 Released

[dougq]

What technical foundation would that be - all low distortion dacs/amps sound the same? (including class A, discrete?) if you believe the simplistic tests we have nowadays (distortion, sinad and frequency response) are enough to discern then we are being lied to with costly hardware such as Holo Cyan or Schiit Mjolnir 3 - we can all just sell these and buy cheapo well measuring Topping.

Unfortunately this isn’t the case.

It is the case. People just choose to like what they like but that's totally fine. You absolutely do not have to buy that costly hardware. I got nothing from them, stuck with the element because it has end game performance at a fraction of the cost, features i want, and a giant knob.

 

[emilsoft]

It is the case. People just choose to like what they like but that's totally fine. You absolutely do not have to buy that costly hardware. I got nothing from them, stuck with the element because it has end game performance at a fraction of the cost, features i want, and a giant knob.

Lets agree to disagree then - if the best you've heard is the RME/Element and you believe there is nothing better/different sounding out there, then that's good for you - you can save some money. But please don't impose your view that all well measuring amp/dac sources sound 100% the same - wether they cost 50$ or 1000$ - this is absolutely incorrect, and if you haven't heard difference you might not have tried say a good R2R dac or a good discrete amplifier going through high quality transducers. This is not a "belief", there is an auditory difference much the same one can see clouds or sun in the sky - one can say the brain is imagining the clouds much the same measurebators say it's imaging dac sound differences.

Please allow for people to discuss sound difference between Element and other sources.

 

[dougq]

Lets agree to disagree then - if the best you've heard is the RME/Element and you believe there is nothing better/different sounding out there, then that's good for you - you can save some money. But please don't impose your view that all well measuring amp/dac sources sound 100% the same - wether they cost 50$ or 1000$ - this is absolutely incorrect, and if you haven't heard difference you might not have tried say a good R2R dac or a good discrete amplifier going through high quality transducers. This is not a "belief", there is an auditory difference much the same one can see clouds or sun in the sky - one can say the brain is imagining the clouds much the same measurebators say it's imaging dac sound differences.

Please allow for people to discuss sound difference between Element and other sources.

I've gone through them all. I still remember going back and forth comparing my Modi 3 to Bifrost 2. I was told to "warm it up" over the weekend and let it run. When it came time to A/B it, nadda.

Actually I'll play devils advocate here. The modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2. The element iv amp also has substantially more dynamics than any discrete amplifier I've heard. I heard it, it is a fact.

 

[emilsoft]

I've gone through them all. I still remember going back and forth comparing my Modi 3 to Bifrost 2. I was told to "warm it up" over the weekend and let it run. When it came time to A/B it, nadda.

Actually I'll play devils advocate here. The modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2. The element iv amp also has substantially more dynamics than any discrete amplifier I've heard. I heard it, it is a fact.

I'm confused; you first say nadda difference between Modi 3 and Bifrost 2, then you say "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ?

 

[dougq]

I'm confused; you first say nadda difference between Modi 3 and Bifrost 2, then you say "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ?

It’s what I heard. Also the magni definitely had more resolution then jot 2.

 

[emilsoft]

I'm confused; you first say nadda difference between Modi 3 and Bifrost 2, then you say "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ?

It’s what I heard. Also the magni definitely had more resolution then jot 2.

Which is it: nadda or "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ? Because it seems to me like you heard a difference - the fact you preferred the Modi 3.

Also note - brightness can give the impression of added resolution/attack, but may not be the case and can result in faster listening fatigue.

 

[zilax002]

I'm confused; you first say nadda difference between Modi 3 and Bifrost 2, then you say "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ?

They're just messing with you.

I don't think this is a particularly productive back and forth, comrades.

 

[emilsoft]

They're just messing with you.

I don't think this is a particularly productive back and forth, comrades.

I guess i fell for it - I dislike it when someone shuts down a conversation with "all well measuring sources sound the same" and have to make a point against it.

 

[dougq]

Which is it: nadda or "modi 3 had more detail and grunt / muscle / resolution / musicality to it than the Bifrost 2" ? Because it seems to me like you heard a difference - the fact you preferred the Modi 3.

Your association with price meaning better and quality is the problem. I’m just making crap up. There was no difference. Most higher end gear is usually technically deficient. But it’s usually not audible so it probably still sounds good.

The main thing was I never said people can’t enjoy what they buy. Go ham. But your reality isn’t the reality. I’m simply going off of technical facts when discussing these products. Im
Not sure why you are here to begin with as you started going off on some tangent related to the rme.

 

[dougq]

I guess i fell for it - I dislike it when someone shuts down a conversation with "all well measuring sources sound the same" and have to make a point against it.

So you can say the rme / element lack grunt and muscle without any specification to indicate that in comparison to other dad / amps. I can say they sound the same but I’m the one who shouldn’t state how I hear it? Your reality is the fact?

 

[emilsoft]

Your association with price meaning better and quality is the problem. I’m just making crap up. There was no difference. Most higher end gear is usually technically deficient. But it’s usually not audible so it probably still sounds good.

The main thing was I never said people can’t enjoy what they buy. Go ham. But your reality isn’t the reality. I’m simply going off of technical facts when discussing these products. Im
Not sure why you are here to begin with as you started going off on some tangent related to the rme.

Price doesn't always correlate to better sound, there's been many instances where I prefer a cheaper component to a more costly one. It's the "all well measuring sources sound the same' argument I have an issue with, and how unhelpful it is when shutting down any conversation discussing auditory experiences.

All I wanted to gain was other peoples experiences on how the Element sounds to them in comparison to other sources, if you can't discern any differences yourself there is no need to attack discussions about it.

 

[zilax002]

All I wanted to gain was other peoples experiences on how the Element sounds to them in comparison to other sources, if you can't discern any differences yourself there is no need to attack discussions about it.

I've got another three weeks of waiting (unless assembly is faster than expected and it's less than a month wait!) but am excited to share impressions and see what other people think as well

I have a middle ground approach to whether competent "audibly transparent" source gear is identical in sound (provided it can power your headphones sufficiently, etc.).

On one hand, yeah, you wouldn't think different amps that measure very well, with noise well north of -120 dB would sound different. But there's also a lot we don't know, and we can't rule out the possibility that factors we don't understand or measure play a role.

Less speculatively, it seems very fair to ask if the kind of static testing that is common for SINAD and other common measurement actually represents an amplifier's performance when playing actual music.

And if we assume/definitely state that those measurements capture everything, without exploring the possibility they do not, then that's just as dogmatic as saying measurements are worthless.

Another big component is, even if we assume two devices sound identical in a proper blind test, we don't listen to music blind.

I will gladly admit I don't know how much (if any) difference there is in my gear, under blind conditions. But I absolutely have different perceptions of it when I listen (sighted).

That isn't fake and it's a unavoidable factor. I would be careful about going overboard praising one amp over another and claiming it's better on some intrinsic level. But despite that I may very well enjoy using one amp better than another.

 

[AntiqueMusician]

Anyone get their back ordered Element IV yet? Thinking about getting one myself despite the 4 week lead time.

 

[Lucikun]

Anyone get their back ordered Element IV yet? Thinking about getting one myself despite the 4 week lead time.

Got an email today that said they’re finishing off shipping back orders for December by end of next week.

 

[Lucikun]

Got my Element is today and loving it so far. EQ works great, just need more options for the bands so we can do more than just one bass/treble shelf.

Also, any plans to bring core to iOS? I normally use my iPad on my desk as my source and having to unplug and switch to the laptop to do any DSP isn’t great. @jseaber