[lin0003]

High end and budget IEMs do not really have that much of a gap, I am very happy with a mid range portable setup. People paying 5K for a portable setup might as well buy a nice desktop that would sound much better. 

 

[H20Fidelity]

  High end and budget IEMs do not really have that much of a gap, I am very happy with a mid range portable setup. People paying 5K for a portable setup might as well buy a nice desktop that would sound much better. 

And push their desk down the street with them? 

 

[lin0003]

 
Seriously though, for the price that people are spending on their portable gear they can buy a high end headphone setup. An AK240 and + Noble 10/Roxanne/Mentor etc will cost you around $4000 + cables and with that you can get Schiit Gungnir/Mjolnir and LCD-3 which would probably sound much better. 

 

[goodvibes]

  There is a lot of TOTL stuff that is middling, while there is a lot of mid-fi stuff that would be bleeding edge 3 years ago...
 
I think what happens with TOTL is that it forces you to look at the rest of your equipment - certainly a high quality $200-$300 IEM is going to plumb the limits of sound reproduction from a phone playing 16/44 CD rips close to what a JH16fp can reveal - but add a high end DAC, an insanely clean amp and some high resolution media - and the TOTL headphone is set free to explore the reaches of what is possible from a digital audio device - at that point, I believe they will (should) leave the mid-fi cans behind. 
 
Now we are talking about that 10-20% of sound on the summit. The laws of diminishing returns are evident here - either you are in for the ride, or you aren't. The $300 stuff gets really, really close for sure - but they might as well be a mile away if you are pushing the envelope (and that tends to be where the technology that makes mid-fi possible is forged)

I agree but still think the higher end stuff seperates itself a bit more than that. So much comes down to preference. A JH16 has too much bass for me to personally enjoy it. For me, something like a jh13 or UERM competes with anything and I haven't heard anything below them that is as good. The flagship Noble 10 and JH Siren may be better but perhaps not enough to swap if you have these. The JH13 and uerm are good enough where associated kit or cables can make them into what is required. Probably the best examples of quality values are things the Noble 4, the Nocturnal IEM I have on hand or something like the forgotten Etymotic HF5. A lot of what makes HiEnd what it is, is the high frequency character and resolution so when I hear it's almost as good except for the highs, I see it as a bit of a rationalization.

 

[goodvibes]

 

 
Seriously though, for the price that people are spending on their portable gear they can buy a high end headphone setup. An AK240 and + Noble 10/Roxanne/Mentor etc will cost you around $4000 + cables and with that you can get Schiit Gungnir/Mjolnir and LCD-3 which would probably sound much better. 

I use a DX90 $400 with JH13s that I got on sale for under $900 and it's working out. I think the DX90 is closer to the $1k(+) daps than any IEM I've heard in the $400 range is to my JH13s and I can leave my desk ay home.

 

[kova4a]

Nope. We still have high priced cables and people buy them all of the time even though there is no difference. People want to spend a lot to feel like they are getting the best sound. I do agree that a lot of the cheaper iems do sound awesome for the money. I just got the Havi B3s and am very happy with them.

With DAPs, amps and DACs, I don't think there is any reason to spend more than $500, but These are actually getting more and more expensive and people are unfortunately paying for them, so they are making more of them. DAC technology has been out forever and memory is dirt cheap yet here we have these selling for more than a TV.

Well, that's not something reserved only to audio gear - the same goes for everything in life - cars, electronics, food etc. The premium stuff costs many times more. Just like with TVs - suddenly a slight curve to the display makes a few hundred dollar TV a $10k one. Free range and organic food costing an arm and a leg is also a good example. As i said, premium stuff is for the people who can afford it and it has been like this since the dawn of civilization, so it's nothing new. It's a niche market with pretty much boutique products. It's just a matter of financial status and personal view on what is too expensive and what isn't. Like in many parts of the world apple products are way too expensive for the average consumer and are considered overpriced luxury items.
It's all a matter of perspective. My father, for instance, considers paying more than 20 bucks for an iem a very high price and for him 100 bucks for an iem is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for something like that - I gave him one of my cheap iems a meelec m16p and he likes it a lot.

 

[ClieOS]

If anything, the low price high performance IEM is going to (1) force high price high performance IEM maker to innovate to stay ahead of the game and (2) push the high price low performance IEM maker out of the market (even just for a little bit). I am all for that. The only thing I don't want to see is IEM manufacturer trying to repackage yesteryear tech and pretend it is new in front of their customer.

 

[haloxt]

I think the totl iem's will keep going up and peak at ~$1-1.5k when companies iron out all of the phase, crossover, and other quirks of multi-driver hybrid iem's, and in maybe ~5 years the competition and technology trickle down will drive the price of totl iem's to maybe $400-800, until planar or electrostatic iem's, then we'll see totl iem's that cost 2-3x more than their weight in gold .

 

[AndroidVageta]

For me I'd rather own well-established IEMs/headphones that's widely used by audio professional because it meets their sound requirements (no gimmicks), has good build quality inside & out, durable and with lots of spare parts & support to go around in later years.

Pro-grade headphone & IEMs i'd rather own so I won't be suckered into kilobuck-tier hole...

- open headphone: HD600
- closed headphone: MDR V6 and MDR CD900ST
- IEM: MDR 7550, ER4 (confirmed as the most accurate-sounding critical listening device without time/phase coherence issues)

This sounds very biased and closed minded. There are a ton of cheaper IEM's that have just as good build quality and review/sound just as good as the "professional" kit. You think the K3003 are really THAT much better then say the Dunu DN-2000? Especially considering it's 3x the price? 
 
Come on now...also with the ER4's MANY people claim that even the T-Peos Altone200 (which is half the price) sound just as good if not better (due to better bass response). I've owned a pair of ER4's and for their price...yeah...they're not really THAT good. Even the Narmoo's that I'm using I think sound better. Maybe not as accurate and what not but I certainly enjoy everything I listen to (movies, TV, music, games, etc) more through these then the ER4 that cost nearly 10x as much.
 
I mean, really, don't knock'em till you've tried'em...which based on your comment I'm going to guess that you haven't...

 

[kova4a]

  This sounds very biased and closed minded. There are a ton of cheaper IEM's that have just as good build quality and review/sound just as good as the "professional" kit. You think the K3003 are really THAT much better then say the Dunu DN-2000? Especially considering it's 3x the price? 
 
Come on now...also with the ER4's MANY people claim that even the T-Peos Altone200 (which is half the price) sound just as good if not better (due to better bass response). I've owned a pair of ER4's and for their price...yeah...they're not really THAT good. Even the Narmoo's that I'm using I think sound better. Maybe not as accurate and what not but I certainly enjoy everything I listen to (movies, TV, music, games, etc) more through these then the ER4 that cost nearly 10x as much.
 
I mean, really, don't knock'em till you've tried'em...which based on your comment I'm going to guess that you haven't...

Well, now you can't really go with "MANY people claim", this or that reviewer said this is better and stuff like that and use it as an argument. Personal preference plays a big part in how much someone likes a certain iem/headphone and I know that in an argument about SQ nothing can beat personal preference. You think that Narmoos S1 is great and enjoy it that doesn't mean that everyone will think like that just look at Narmoo S1's review that joker released today - technically such a score should put it below pretty much all of the bang for buck stuff that's come out the last couple of years, including every single vsonic model for instance. You say "don't knock em till you try them" but now a lot of people will see joker's review and without hearing them won't consider buying them at all as inferior to a lot of similarly and even lower priced stuff that go higher score. And they'll do it purely based on another people's opinion just like you're discrediting all the high priced gear you haven't even heard based on someone thinking someone else that is cheaper is better - where is the difference - why would anyone want to spend 45 bucks on the narmoo if someone like joker is pretty much saying that many cheaper iems sound better? 

 

[AndroidVageta]

  Well, now you can't really go with "MANY people claim", this or that reviewer said this is better and stuff like that and use it as an argument. Personal preference plays a big part in how much someone likes a certain iem/headphone and I know that in an argument about SQ nothing can beat personal preference. You think that Narmoos S1 is great and enjoy it that doesn't mean that everyone will think like that just look at Narmoo S1's review that joker released today - technically such a score should put it below pretty much all of the bang for buck stuff that's come out the last couple of years, including every single vsonic model for instance. You say "don't knock em till you try them" but now a lot of people will see joker's review and without hearing them won't consider buying them at all as inferior to a lot of similarly and even lower priced stuff that go higher score. And they'll do it purely based on another people's opinion just like you're discrediting all the high priced gear you haven't even heard based on someone thinking someone else that is cheaper is better - where is the difference - why would anyone want to spend 45 bucks on the narmoo if someone like joker is pretty much saying that many cheaper iems sound better? 

http://theheadphonelist.com/headphone_review/narmoo-s1/
 
Is this the review you're talking about? Based on what I JUST read he seems to rank these pretty well with more expensive buds and really has not much negative to say about them.
 

  Value (8.5/10) – The NarMoo S1 is a dual dynamic driver earphone with a powerful, smooth, likable sound signature. While bass control and clarity are limited by the bass quantity, both still impress in comparison to other sets with similar tuning. The housings are on the large side, but very solidly built and comfortable except in small ears. Combined with a sub-$50 price tag, this makes the S1 an easy recommendation among bass-heavy IEMs.

Pros: Bass-heavy sound with surprisingly robust midrange and smooth treble
Cons: Some bass bloat/boom; mild driver flex 

 
THL Recommended! Either way...this thread isn't about the Narmoo's...I've just been using them as an on-hand example. Not to mention that the Narmoo are pretty low on the list of "cheap" buds. This thread was more meant for your $150-300 hybrids that really do give the higher-end a run for their money. Look at the Altone200...uses the same TWFK dual armature driver as the Vsonic's (and others) yet costs less and has a dynamic driver on top of it all! I mean, you can't beat that. The fact that people have even said something like the Altone200 is as good or better than something like the ER4 says a lot to me. Like I said, I've owned the ER4S (not too long ago either see profile pic) and even the Narmoo, while maybe not as detail, certainly have a more musical and fun tone to them while not leaving anything out really compared to the ER4's. I certainly don't notice a glaring lack of anything...if anything the opposite is true.
 
Anyway it goes though...anyone can use the "it's all opinion" excuse. Even with joker being as respected as he is, all his reviews are still just opinion. If someone thinks something name brand is instantly better than a lesser known company or whatever then they can do that. Still doesn't make them right though. 

 

[kova4a]

  http://theheadphonelist.com/headphone_review/narmoo-s1/
 
Is this the review you're talking about? Based on what I JUST read he seems to rank these pretty well with more expensive buds and really has not much negative to say about them.
 
 
THL Recommended! Either way...this thread isn't about the Narmoo's...I've just been using them as an on-hand example. 

Well, I'm also using them as an example. There are a whole bunch of iems reviewed by joker that have a 10/10 value score and higher sound score. So now people looking for a new purchase will assume the narmoos that you're liking so much are not worth it. Just like you read other people's opinions and made assumptions about TOTL gear and its worth. As soon as I saw Tyll's measurements of the narmoos I knew they won't get a very high score but as I said you can't beat personal preference with measurements and graphs, sq scores, talks about technical performance or anything. 
 
Don't get me wrong, I agree that the TOTL gear is getting way too expensive and that there are some great cheaper performers. I'm just saying that this trend won't come to an end so soon and that you don't really have solid arguments to support your opinion aside from your personal preference about the Narmoo S1, other people's claims about certain iems and the obvious argument about the very high price in comparison. That's all.

 

[AndroidVageta]

Look, all I'm saying is that people like "TheBoss" shouldn't dismiss cheaper lesser known brands simply because they're cheaper and lesser known. If you had told me a few days ago that there were $40 buds that sounded as good as buds that I've listened to that cost hundreds of $$$ more I'd have laughed in your face and told you to go away. I can say that I now see the error in my ways. Again, not saying the Narmoo as necessarily BETTER than an $800 CIEM or anything...but the fact that, to my ears, they sound some what comparable is a big deal. I'm 27 years old and for the LONGEST time I tried all the cheap buds in the book. Nothing I've ever owned for ~$50 in the past 10+ years comes CLOSE to these Narmoo...and yet these are somewhat middle of the road as far as hybrids are concerned (if not the cheapest that exist). That's an astonishing feat and my whole point of the thread. 
 
No longer does one have to spend $1,000 to get that $1,000 sound. 

 

[haloxt]

I understand what TheBoss is getting at, but I think there's a place for studio gear and colored gear and they shouldn't be compared against each other. The thing about audio gear made for studio use is they are supposed to be tuned to be accurate, detailed, or color the sound in a way that allows important things to be well revealed for analysis, while non-studio audiophile gear may be tuned for euphony and exaggerate, color, or hide things in order to achieve the desired sound signature. Although I have listened with neutral headphones most of my audiophile life because faithful reproduction is what I like, I know it's only rarely as exciting and euphonic as colored gear. Also I wouldn't listen to that noise people call modern music with anything but my non-studio speakers and headphones.

 

[AndroidVageta]

  I understand what TheBoss is getting at, but I think there's a place for studio gear and colored gear and they shouldn't be compared against each other. The thing about audio gear made for studio use is they are supposed to be tuned to be accurate, detailed, or color the sound in a way that allows important things to be well revealed for analysis, while non-studio audiophile gear may be tuned for euphony and exaggerate, color, or hide things in order to achieve the desired sound signature. Although I have listened with neutral headphones most of my audiophile life because faithful reproduction is what I like, I know it's only rarely as exciting and euphonic as colored gear. Also I wouldn't listen to that noise people call modern music with anything but my non-studio speakers and headphones.

Oh no I get it...that's why I pointed out the ER4's. I owned them...like a couple weeks ago...and really didn't hear what all the hub-bub was about. I can say that, to my ears (as always), the ER4 really don't stand out in anyway compared to the Narmoo's that I own (hate to keep referencing them as they are the lowest-end hybrids but what can ya do?). Sure the ER4 may be more "detailed" and "accurate" but based on my equipment and the music I listen to (not that "noise" you're referring too) the Narmoo's sound just as detailed with added bass, separation, and sound stage to boot!
 
Again, not really trying to argue or disagree with anyone but like I said, I've listened to and owned a lot of higher-end gear. I feel I have a pretty firm grasp of what GOOD sound is supposed to sound like. These Narmoo's have GOOD sound. And cost $40. They're what inspired me to create this thread. If something like the Altone200's sound THAT much better than the Narmoo's...then...yeah...I'll probably have my new life-long buds. These Narmoo's already have me wondering if I even need the Altones to begin with...
 
I don't know...for $40 I recommend everyone to try them...might help with the understanding of my over all point. I think too many people are just instantly seeing "$40" and going "NOPE NOT HAPPENING!" without even giving them a go. Too many assumptions. Too many preconceived notions.