wafflesomd
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And thus, was the birth, of Myspace.
Is the internet deteriorating the art of conversation?
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skullguise
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For me, it's not so bad; I don't think the internet is solely to blame for deteriorating communication. I enjoy the extended reach that the internet, and forums like this, provide. I have "e-met" and conversed online with some awesome folks, from Eastern and Western Europe, to many parts of Asia, and all over North America.
What seems to bug me most, though, is the incorrect use of words in various contexts. Examples:
To versus too, their versus they're versus there; I remember a post (sorry to point this out in particular) that used board when meaning bored. I'm sure there are many more examples, but these jump to the forefront of my memory. Typo's are one thing; total misuse is another.
Handwriting & proper grammar are bigger losses in this age.....communication as a whole has deteriorated, but the internet is just part of the issue I'd say.
What seems to bug me most, though, is the incorrect use of words in various contexts. Examples:
To versus too, their versus they're versus there; I remember a post (sorry to point this out in particular) that used board when meaning bored. I'm sure there are many more examples, but these jump to the forefront of my memory. Typo's are one thing; total misuse is another.
Handwriting & proper grammar are bigger losses in this age.....communication as a whole has deteriorated, but the internet is just part of the issue I'd say.
Mrvile
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I think it changes from person to person. A lot of people degrade to skipping punctuation and using words like "u, y, and r" along with "lol, brb, What" to "compose" a conversation or a sentence. For me, I think being part of several internet discussions communities (what you folk like to refer to the slang term "forum"
) has helped me grow as a conversationalist. Since I try to take my time to come up with something legitimate to say during serious discussion, I pay special attention to grammar and diction, which has really made my writing skills and even my thought process mature. A lot of people online tend to think I'm older than I really am, and that's not surprising.
Coltrane
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Quote:
Thats insane. I always hate hearing these stories as an educator, because people think that fringe and ridiculous rules like this are the norm. I spell and grammar check my students like a mad man, and I teach social studies. I really don't see how she is not allowed to check their spelling. Maybe I could see not grading heavily on spelling, but that is still different from not checking it. I would be fired for NOT grading spelling.
| Originally Posted by nysulli /img/forum/go_quote.gif case in point, my fiance teaches 5th grade, and she isn't allowed to correct spelling, actually she could be fired if her administraters found out she gave her kids spelling tests, because in their exact words "thats why word has spell check" nevermind the art of conversation, how about the simple concept of being able to communicate an idea to someone else, thats really what schools need to teach kids, and to do that, you still need grammer and spelling on top of knowledge. |
Thats insane. I always hate hearing these stories as an educator, because people think that fringe and ridiculous rules like this are the norm. I spell and grammar check my students like a mad man, and I teach social studies. I really don't see how she is not allowed to check their spelling. Maybe I could see not grading heavily on spelling, but that is still different from not checking it. I would be fired for NOT grading spelling.
Lazarus Short
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Yes, word has spell check, but in my experience spell check does not always get it write, er, right. See what I mean? Too many people simply click on "CHANGE" as fast as the finger can go, thinking spell check can always be depended on, but only usually.
A bigger worry is the bias the education system seems to have, to [as the late, great Jeff Cooper said] turn our young people into choppers of wood and drawers of water. I speak of specific training for specific jobs vs Real Education. How can America stay on top of the game, given current trends? I can not help but wonder if we are being dumbed down by the frog-in-a-pot method for a future somewhat like that depicted in "The Postman".
BTW, is an internet thread like this one really conversation?
Laz
| Originally Posted by nysulli /img/forum/go_quote.gif i don't think its so much the internet as it is our culture whats different between writing an actual letter or an email, nothing to do with the contents itself, or sending someone an IM instead of calling them, the message is still the same i think if anything, its technology, and how people view it case in point, my fiance teaches 5th grade, and she isn't allowed to correct spelling, actually she could be fired if her administraters found out she gave her kids spelling tests, because in their exact words "thats why word has spell check" nevermind the art of conversation, how about the simple concept of being able to communicate an idea to someone else, thats really what schools need to teach kids, and to do that, you still need grammer and spelling on top of knowledge. something like spell check is for folks like me, who aren't always great with spelling, but guess what, i treat spell check like looking up a word in the dictionary, i see where i was wrong, and remember it, i don't just blindly correct it. again, its all in how you use technology, you can use it like a robot and learn nothing, or you can use it to educate yourself and better your communication skills |
Yes, word has spell check, but in my experience spell check does not always get it write, er, right. See what I mean? Too many people simply click on "CHANGE" as fast as the finger can go, thinking spell check can always be depended on, but only usually.
A bigger worry is the bias the education system seems to have, to [as the late, great Jeff Cooper said] turn our young people into choppers of wood and drawers of water. I speak of specific training for specific jobs vs Real Education. How can America stay on top of the game, given current trends? I can not help but wonder if we are being dumbed down by the frog-in-a-pot method for a future somewhat like that depicted in "The Postman".
BTW, is an internet thread like this one really conversation?
Laz
plainsong
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I always feel teh stoopid when I notice I replied with lots of typos that are actually misused words - like bored and board, quiet and quite, week and weak, which is one my fingers confuse all the time.
I know the differences, and I do it anyway, and no spell checker will catch it.
I know the differences, and I do it anyway, and no spell checker will catch it.
CSMR
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Quote:
Of course logic and rhetoric was taught as part of the standard "university" curriculum in the middle ages. That is rhetoric in the high sense of learning argument. (Not in the more Machiavellian of Carnegie though that has its place too.) And later in schools grammar through classics and in a rigourous approach to all subjects.
Now at schools rote methods (for the harder subjcts) and self expression (for the softer ones) have replaced critical thinking and utility in the market has replaced the valuing of truth. Of course that is a simplification but one that holds some truth. Universities are better but only teach people to think in a specific area, a few subjects excepted.
My little analysis of the general decline in thinking. Of course it is also true that more people are speaking - whether on TV, the internet, or any medium - than in the past and if more people had spoken then we should have a lower view of those times.
Quote:
It is like the real world in most respects. You souldn't expect most of the discussions on the internet to be educated. But at a small handful of places one can have good discussions. The one difference I would note is that on the internet you can say things in a discussion which in the real world would result in getting a well deserved punch in the face. It is also easy to find people of the same ideology to spend time reciting the various maxims of that ideology... in short to find the very people who would not punch you in the face in the real world.
| Originally Posted by saint.panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cicero told participants in a conversation, amongst others, to speak clearly and easily but not too much, to deal seriously with serious matters and gracefully with lighter ones, to not talk about yourself, and, above all, to never lose your temper. Carnegie added that one should also listen well, become genuinely interested in other people, talk in terms of the other person's interest, and make the other person feel important. |
Of course logic and rhetoric was taught as part of the standard "university" curriculum in the middle ages. That is rhetoric in the high sense of learning argument. (Not in the more Machiavellian of Carnegie though that has its place too.) And later in schools grammar through classics and in a rigourous approach to all subjects.
Now at schools rote methods (for the harder subjcts) and self expression (for the softer ones) have replaced critical thinking and utility in the market has replaced the valuing of truth. Of course that is a simplification but one that holds some truth. Universities are better but only teach people to think in a specific area, a few subjects excepted.
My little analysis of the general decline in thinking. Of course it is also true that more people are speaking - whether on TV, the internet, or any medium - than in the past and if more people had spoken then we should have a lower view of those times.
Quote:
| A lot of these things seem to be missing from online discussions. What do you think? Is the internet culture with all its youtube, online forums, IRC, chatrooms, MSN, AIM etc. leading to an overall decline in the art of conversation? We had this discussion over lunch today and I think the internet only adds to real conversations, but I'm curious about other opinions. |
It is like the real world in most respects. You souldn't expect most of the discussions on the internet to be educated. But at a small handful of places one can have good discussions. The one difference I would note is that on the internet you can say things in a discussion which in the real world would result in getting a well deserved punch in the face. It is also easy to find people of the same ideology to spend time reciting the various maxims of that ideology... in short to find the very people who would not punch you in the face in the real world.
GlorytheWiz825
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Instant messaging has definitely deteriorated the quality of sentence structures. Very few people use punctuation in IM windows and there are so many new slangs now that older generations are not familiar with.
nysulli
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coltraine, i realize a case like that is far from the norm, but the fact remains that some kids are schooled that way, and its scary to think that, because in her town, all the kids were taught that way for several years, along with not being taught their multiplication tables or long division (yes, i've witnessed 5th graders answer 5x5 wrong after a bit of thinking, and yes, she hates her district and wants out because she believes that even though she sneaks around doing what she's not supposed to teach, that the kids are being put at a disadvantage to try out a new form of learning, and once i'm done with my doctorate, she's leaving for a better district)
and yes, thats where spell check falls short, which is why you still need to be schooled in grammer and spelling
and yes, thats where spell check falls short, which is why you still need to be schooled in grammer and spelling
plainsong
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One local university uses problem-based learning as a teaching method. Now PBL can work really well with a teacher guiding the way, but the program director prefers the pure approach, where the topic the students need to learn is hidden in the problem they're presented with, and they have to find out what it is. The teacher can't help, nor can the teacher guide the research to find solutions, so it can end up being a whole lot of nothing.
But it's a business program, so that can prepare you for real-life meetings as well.
I'm glad I had some teachers that wanted us to think critically. Those are the only courses I remember. If you know how to do that, you don't need to memorize stuff.
But it's a business program, so that can prepare you for real-life meetings as well.
I'm glad I had some teachers that wanted us to think critically. Those are the only courses I remember. If you know how to do that, you don't need to memorize stuff.
m_memmory
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I find that spelling checks on the PC actually work only for letting me realise where I mis-spelled a word as I was typing. I actually notice the underline and immediately go back and retype the proper spelling instead. I don't use the spell check button for anything at all.
digitalmind
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If the language and conversation skills of people are actually degrading, I don't think it's the fault of the internet, or msn, or mobile phones. It's our fault. Take MSN, obviously filled with shortcuts, abbreviations, smilies, and the like.
I think the reason why all these things are being used is because it's shorter, and easier. But why did it start on the internet (say that it did actually start on the internet, something I'm not all that sure of)? It's not because the internet forced us, it's because the internet provided us with a place where it would not be looked down upon. Mostly anywhere you go, if you communicate with someone, they will care about how you say things. If it's a school essay, you're meant to write proffesional or atleast according to spelling and grammar rules. If you write a report for your boss, it's meant to be proffesional, or else you wouldn't last long at your position. So for writing, that was all fine and dandy. For speaking aswell, at school or at work you talk seriously. With friends, you talked on phones or in person, but because you were used to speaking and writing formally, you did so with friends aswell.
Then, the internet came along. It offered a place where you could say things quicker if you used abbreviations. You needed silly abbreviations like 'lol', 'What', etc, to express yourself, since instead of talking where someone could hear you react, it was all typed. Now offcourse expressing yourself was a problem before in letters, but those were never actuall conversations. Never an instant reply. So abbreviations and missing punctuation, etc, all became pretty normal. Which might be fine for most, since it's still understandable, and easier and quicker to write.
Unfortunatly, the internet has became such a large part of our lives that we spend quite a large deal of our daily time on it, and we got used to it to such an extent that it started influencing our writing skills, aswell as our overall knowledge of language and conversation.
Personally, I try to be correct in writing aswell as conversation, and I really like a good talk with people about any subject. It's so much more personal and educational than reading 'ey wats up do u like grado!?'. Offcourse, this is very exxagerated but not all that far from what you run into sometimes here on the big ol' web. That's not to say that a good conversation can't take place on the internet, look at this one. The internet just provided us with a place where it wouldn't matter how we 'talked' as long as we understood eachother. And while this might not be a problem for older people who have, through the years, learned how to converse and how to use propper grammar, it is a problem for the younger generation who spend a lot of their time and a lot of their talking on the internet.
Offcourse, it's not only the internet. There's text messaging, street talk, etc. It's not the fault of the medium, but our use of it.
I think the reason why all these things are being used is because it's shorter, and easier. But why did it start on the internet (say that it did actually start on the internet, something I'm not all that sure of)? It's not because the internet forced us, it's because the internet provided us with a place where it would not be looked down upon. Mostly anywhere you go, if you communicate with someone, they will care about how you say things. If it's a school essay, you're meant to write proffesional or atleast according to spelling and grammar rules. If you write a report for your boss, it's meant to be proffesional, or else you wouldn't last long at your position. So for writing, that was all fine and dandy. For speaking aswell, at school or at work you talk seriously. With friends, you talked on phones or in person, but because you were used to speaking and writing formally, you did so with friends aswell.
Then, the internet came along. It offered a place where you could say things quicker if you used abbreviations. You needed silly abbreviations like 'lol', 'What', etc, to express yourself, since instead of talking where someone could hear you react, it was all typed. Now offcourse expressing yourself was a problem before in letters, but those were never actuall conversations. Never an instant reply. So abbreviations and missing punctuation, etc, all became pretty normal. Which might be fine for most, since it's still understandable, and easier and quicker to write.
Unfortunatly, the internet has became such a large part of our lives that we spend quite a large deal of our daily time on it, and we got used to it to such an extent that it started influencing our writing skills, aswell as our overall knowledge of language and conversation.
Personally, I try to be correct in writing aswell as conversation, and I really like a good talk with people about any subject. It's so much more personal and educational than reading 'ey wats up do u like grado!?'. Offcourse, this is very exxagerated but not all that far from what you run into sometimes here on the big ol' web. That's not to say that a good conversation can't take place on the internet, look at this one. The internet just provided us with a place where it wouldn't matter how we 'talked' as long as we understood eachother. And while this might not be a problem for older people who have, through the years, learned how to converse and how to use propper grammar, it is a problem for the younger generation who spend a lot of their time and a lot of their talking on the internet.
Offcourse, it's not only the internet. There's text messaging, street talk, etc. It's not the fault of the medium, but our use of it.
m_memmory
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Mentioning text messaging is something slighty different (in my opinion) as there is something there where you are being charged for the number of characters that you use. I'm quite happy to reduce my text messages to the bare essentials that will be legable to the person receiving it if I can get everything I wanted to say into one message and therefore save myself some money on the cost of the messages.
With internet conversations, either posting a message onto a web forum or conversing via an instant messenger program, I don't have the same motivation to save myself a bit of cash. I, like most people nowadays I would imagine, have a broadband internet connection that is "always on" and so pay for it monthly. It doesn't matter if I'm chatting away for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, the only difference is the amount of electricity that I'm paying for. And so I'm happy to attempt to use proper spelling when speaking via these mediums.
To me the only difference is time spent using full sentances and full words (on the internet) and I don't think that there's much of an argument that can be used to say that it's a wise use of time to use all the abbreviations to save a few seconds here and there.
With internet conversations, either posting a message onto a web forum or conversing via an instant messenger program, I don't have the same motivation to save myself a bit of cash. I, like most people nowadays I would imagine, have a broadband internet connection that is "always on" and so pay for it monthly. It doesn't matter if I'm chatting away for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, the only difference is the amount of electricity that I'm paying for. And so I'm happy to attempt to use proper spelling when speaking via these mediums.
To me the only difference is time spent using full sentances and full words (on the internet) and I don't think that there's much of an argument that can be used to say that it's a wise use of time to use all the abbreviations to save a few seconds here and there.
digitalmind
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Very true. Messages are shortened to stay within the maximum length of single message.
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It saves time, you can do more if you're typing quicker, and that matters quite a bit to some. Unfortunatly this also means that most of the posts or messages aren't as well thought out as those typed in a proper way.
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Ouch, took that one away from me before I could bring it into play. You're right though -- the few minutes saved per internet session hardly matter. My earlier arguement still stands though, for many it's easier and more relaxed to abbreviate, ignore periods, commas, etc, since they don't have to worry about making mistakes anyway. And because of the prolonged use of that, it slowly becomes natural.
| Originally Posted by m_memmory /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mentioning text messaging is something slighty different (in my opinion) as there is something there where you are being charged for the number of characters that you use. I'm quite happy to reduce my text messages to the bare essentials that will be legable to the person receiving it if I can get everything I wanted to say into one message and therefore save myself some money on the cost of the messages. |
Very true. Messages are shortened to stay within the maximum length of single message.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by m_memmory /img/forum/go_quote.gif With internet conversations, either posting a message onto a web forum or conversing via an instant messenger program, I don't have the same motivation to save myself a bit of cash. I, like most people nowadays I would imagine, have a broadband internet connection that is "always on" and so pay for it monthly. It doesn't matter if I'm chatting away for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, the only difference is the amount of electricity that I'm paying for. And so I'm happy to attempt to use proper spelling when speaking via these mediums. |
It saves time, you can do more if you're typing quicker, and that matters quite a bit to some. Unfortunatly this also means that most of the posts or messages aren't as well thought out as those typed in a proper way.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by m_memmory /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the only difference is time spent using full sentances and full words (on the internet) and I don't think that there's much of an argument that can be used to say that it's a wise use of time to use all the abbreviations to save a few seconds here and there. |
Ouch, took that one away from me before I could bring it into play. You're right though -- the few minutes saved per internet session hardly matter. My earlier arguement still stands though, for many it's easier and more relaxed to abbreviate, ignore periods, commas, etc, since they don't have to worry about making mistakes anyway. And because of the prolonged use of that, it slowly becomes natural.
GlendaleViper
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Internet isn't killing conversation, though I'd say is is contributing to the deterioration of language as an art. With School programs increasingly "outlawing" fundamental language systems like grammar and spelling, it's not helping the situation. The fact that "professional" reviews and articles on the 'net are written by what appear to be middleschool dropouts isn't helping either.
I think far more pronounced on our actual interactions as a species is the combination of a deteriorating language, general lack of consideration for other people and an overwhelming sense of entitlement in youth.
I think far more pronounced on our actual interactions as a species is the combination of a deteriorating language, general lack of consideration for other people and an overwhelming sense of entitlement in youth.
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