[saint.panda]

For enthusiasts conversation is an art, one of the great pleasures of life, even the basis of civilised society. American essayist Stephen Miller wrote that “neither digital music players nor computers were invented to help people avoid real conversation, but they have that effect.”

Cicero told participants in a conversation, amongst others, to speak clearly and easily but not too much, to deal seriously with serious matters and gracefully with lighter ones, to not talk about yourself, and, above all, to never lose your temper. Carnegie added that one should also listen well, become genuinely interested in other people, talk in terms of the other person's interest, and make the other person feel important.

A lot of these things seem to be missing from online discussions. What do you think? Is the internet culture with all its youtube, online forums, IRC, chatrooms, MSN, AIM etc. leading to an overall decline in the art of conversation? We had this discussion over lunch today and I think the internet only adds to real conversations, but I'm curious about other opinions.

 

[vcoheda]

One thing that has grown (and I wish would deteriorate) due to the Internet and other digital media is the use of annoying acronyms. I really . . . hate them. Maybe I'm just old.

LOL!

 

[m_memmory]

I get that too - I'm one of those people that (attempts) to use proper grammar and spelling when I'm typing. It's especially annoying when using an instant messenger (to me anyway)

 

[terrymx]

If you ever lived in a crowed city, you would think otherwize, with street punks swearing and rapping, cellphone users not minding other people around disclosing their personal life or speaking during class or in a controlled area. I am disgusted with street talks; who you be? you is a trip. Certainly didn't come from the internet, was there already.

You cannot blame the internet alone, the world of conversation itself is evolving, and it reflects our culture, other things are deteriating too. What are promoted today? I don't need to mention.

I would blame the parents and teachers also. Why are kids so bad today? (or maybe its just me). In my mother language there is no "you" and "me", you have a specific way to refer to your mom as to your peers, if I called my mom you, my dad or brother would give me a whooping.

As for internet alone, unfortunately I really agree to an extend. Like you said, so many kids play video games these day and if you ever seen multiplayer rpg or first person shooter, its horrific to read what they say. But what about wikipedia, the online dictionary? It's base on the individual will. For one, the internet has vastly improved my English reading skill. It has positive effect too. So it is not so easy make a final judgement.

I used to really dislike it acronym such as lol, ok, rofl, but I have loosen myself up and actaully used it sometimes, because it is down too earth. Sometimes people fake in speaking well to make them seem intellectual, or when it become too elitiest, I am disgusted just the same.

No one should boast about their conversation skill until they can write like Script.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif One thing that has grown (and I wish would deteriorate) due to the Internet and other digital media is the use of annoying acronyms. I really . . . hate them. Maybe I'm just old. LOL!

IKEWYM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

haha.

 

[catscratch]

In short, I don't think so. The internet gives voice to just about anyone with internet access. To use us as an example: head-fi has degraded in recent years with the great influx of young immature members to the point that threads that ask pointed, intelligent questions about specific systems or ideas usually get ignored. That's not because others have lost the art of conversation - it's because the internet gave voice to a large group of people that never had that art to begin with.

 

[Turnaround]

i think online discussions should be in addition to real-life contact with friends you know personally, not a substitute. i still talk to friends and family as much as before the internet, but the internet lets me pass additional small messages and chit-chat in-between long-distance calls and visits.

for better or worse, you used to just show up at 7pm for dinner with a friend. now you show up at 7pm for dinner with a friend and spend an hour e-mailing back and forth or making quick calls coordinating time ("hey, i'm about to head out" ... "hey, i'm ten minutes away" ... "hey, i'm five minutes away" ... "i've come in, where are you?" ... "okay, i see where you are, i'll go to you").

actually, i know a lot of people who feel like they are overloaded with communication now that we have the internet and e-mail as an additional avenue of communication.

 

[antiant]

i think and as odd as this may sound, talking on the internet you're able to speak openly more so, then public conversation due to the anonymity factor and well because of this, people are more 'open' then they would be, in public, therefore the conversation is a bit more genuine...it's easy to be open and honest on the internet as oppose to public without thinking about 'taboos' 'political correctness' 'scrutiny' and so forth...makes ya wonder sometimes the dynamics and or 'art' of conversation with regards to both mediums

 

[Asr]

Fo' sure! It wasn't until the Internet and IM came along that I started using these in everyday conversation!

- KTHXBYE!
- CYA!
- TTYL!
- I was AFK!
- I was LOL'ing dude!

 

[FalconP]

The internet creates its own subcultures, each with its own rules of communication. It is all fine and dandy if such rules are restricted to the net, but unfortunately they do bleed into real life -- and that's when eyebrows are raised.

I personally loathe smilies (or emoticons); in my earlier days in the web I made it a point of never using any, confident in my ability to convey any shade of meaning with words alone -- after all, authors of books and news articles don't need them. But then came several incidents when people just missed my point and turned nasty, and I realised that I'll have to give in, once in a while at least.

Welcome to cyberRome.

And soon enough these half-brackets come popping up in real life. What happens is that cyber-lingo just won't stay in the net; it always finds its way out. Whether it is a contamination or an enrichment is, of course, a matter of opinion.

 

[plainsong]

And to think that nowadays people wouldn't learn about why Cicero said some of the stuff he did. He was taken for granted in his time I think.

But I think the comment about headfi itself, and younger posters has some truth, but I also have seen some really good stuff coming from younger headfiers, so I don't want to lump them all together. I think it's a case where sometimes maturity isn't related to age.

More related to the topic though, I think the question of English (since that's the language we're all using and the dominating language of teh internets since people across boundaries can understand it) degrading as a result might seem true, but I, as has been mentioned already, also think that it's only a changing. it seems like degrading because it wasn't how we learned it.

But from the point-of-view of those for whom English is not the first language, and finding it sort of forced upon them even more so, thanks to the internet, wouldn't the question no longer be about the standard if English degrading, but their own language becoming that much closer to obsolete? And what could, or should be done about it?

And now I wonder if that doesn't have a bigger impact on the changing of the English language, the fact that it gains new users at such a rapid pace, interjecting new things into it, that make it tougher for them to learn "correctly" native speakers to understand them properly.

It's something that's too big for me to have an opinion on, just one of those things that's happening. I'd say you're welcome to speak English badly, since we all do anyway.

 

[nysulli]

i don't think its so much the internet as it is our culture

whats different between writing an actual letter or an email, nothing to do with the contents itself, or sending someone an IM instead of calling them, the message is still the same

i think if anything, its technology, and how people view it

case in point, my fiance teaches 5th grade, and she isn't allowed to correct spelling, actually she could be fired if her administraters found out she gave her kids spelling tests, because in their exact words "thats why word has spell check" nevermind the art of conversation, how about the simple concept of being able to communicate an idea to someone else, thats really what schools need to teach kids, and to do that, you still need grammer and spelling on top of knowledge.

something like spell check is for folks like me, who aren't always great with spelling, but guess what, i treat spell check like looking up a word in the dictionary, i see where i was wrong, and remember it, i don't just blindly correct it. again, its all in how you use technology, you can use it like a robot and learn nothing, or you can use it to educate yourself and better your communication skills

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif More related to the topic though, I think the question of English (since that's the language we're all using and the dominating language of teh internets since people across boundaries can understand it) degrading as a result might seem true, but I, as has been mentioned already, also think that it's only a changing. it seems like degrading because it wasn't how we learned it.

i dont entirely agree with that. i think that the "purity" (or whatever the french language police would enforce if they were the american language police) of the english language is degrading SLIGHTLY, but not entirely because of the internet.

i think that a decent part of what people percieve as a degradation of the language is diferent dialects/subcultures which show up on the web. these are styles that you would not otherwise be exposed to and may be technically correct or slightly incorect, but for being diferent they are noticed. there is also a personal touch that emerges on the internet. i personally dont use upper case lettering when typing on the web. when i write by hand i go all eE cuMMiNgS on my work. yes, my handwriting looks like that. i suppose there is a skip somewhere in my mind anyways. when i write by hand i write the letter how i feel it then, when i type i cant even find the shift key without looking.

i think that there are larger problems for the english language than anything happening on the web. perhaps the fact that people type like they talk is an indicator that english is really dropping quickly.

 

[Coltrane]

Grammar is consensus, it aint be no science. The purpose of language to accurately express emotions and ideas. As long as that goal is accomplished, language will serve its purpose.

However, there is still a time and place for 'correct' grammar and proper English. What the internet has done is blur those boundaries for the younger generation. It used to be that typing was in itself sacred, something difficult to do so it was always done right. Now that typing is a part of everyday life, a student will think nothing of send an email to a teacher or boss that includes LOL and poor grammar. What does this mean? Not much, really, just that students need to be reminded more of how to talk or write.

 

[plainsong]

Is she allowed to at least teach them two, to, and too? Or there, they're, and their? Or how about deer and dear, or here and hear? Spell checks wouldn't pick up any of these errors, which is why we make them all the time even when we know the difference. What about ware, wear, and where?

I'm generally against homeschooling, but then you hear crap like this and it gives you pause for thought.

Quote:

i don't think its so much the internet as it is our culture whats different between writing an actual letter or an email, nothing to do with the contents itself, or sending someone an IM instead of calling them, the message is still the same i think if anything, its technology, and how people view it case in point, my fiance teaches 5th grade, and she isn't allowed to correct spelling, actually she could be fired if her administraters found out she gave her kids spelling tests, because in their exact words "thats why word has spell check" nevermind the art of conversation, how about the simple concept of being able to communicate an idea to someone else, thats really what schools need to teach kids, and to do that, you still need grammer and spelling on top of knowledge. something like spell check is for folks like me, who aren't always great with spelling, but guess what, i treat spell check like looking up a word in the dictionary, i see where i was wrong, and remember it, i don't just blindly correct it. again, its all in how you use technology, you can use it like a robot and learn nothing, or you can use it to educate yourself and better your communication skills

edit - I don't know what to think anymore though. I was talking to my HS history teacher, who just said someone used the term Lollerskates in a term paper.