IS the electro static headphone system the bEST??

[catscratch]

To answer the original question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakedtoes Those who has STAX or other electro static headphone systems pls comment.. How is it compare to RS1 with tube amps.. Is electro static direction the way to go?? thanks

I think that you will find that high-end audio becomes more subjective, not less, the further you go up the upgrade chain. Up to a point. Whether electrostatics are better or whether dynamics are better is a matter of preference. Each have their strengths and weaknesses. Electrostatics are certainly superior in clarity (though not detail IMO), instrument separation, tonal quality, and speed. Dynamics are superior in impact, and often in detail (at least as far as the new Sony's and the Qualia demonstrate). Whether you prefer one or the other will depend on how much their respective strengths are important to you.

For what it's worth, I've never heard a system that was even in the same league as the HE90/HEV90. Not the R10, and not the 010. On most systems, you're listening to a system reproducing specific instruments. On the Orpheus, you're listening to those instruments. Instead of reproducing a bass guitar, it becomes a bass guitar; instead of reproducing a full-size orchestra with the right soundstage and tonal balance, you wind up in a concert hall listening to a full-size orchestra whenever you hit the play button. There's no thoughts of detail, tonal quality, or soundstage that enter your head - you're just there, and the music is (almost) completely real.

My SR-404's also do this, but to a lesser degree. On them, you hear the instruments, but they're still in your head, the way a headphone would place them, rather than the real (and speaker-like) soundstage of the HE90. Still, I've yet to hear anything but electrostatic systems that have this chameleon-like ability to simply become whatever instrument that they're portraying.

*****

In terms of the electrostatic vs. dynamic debate - I don't think there has been as much progress in high-end dynamic headphone technology as we might think. The 010 is more of a step sideways from the R10 than a step forward, and the R10 is a lot older than the Orpheus! Sure, the 010 is more detailed than the R10, but being hyperdetailed isn't necessarily a virtue if your goal is the most realistic reproduction of music possible. The R10 is better, in my opinion, in reproducing the texture and tonal quality of instruments than the 010 - but still not up to electrostatic (HE90) standards.

The real progress has been in canalphones. This is the new technology, and given how practical it is, I expect it to take off massively.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRedwings19 Wmcmanus>The "visceral bass" you talk of. Do you mean how much you "feel" it? I think the reason most headfiers comment about it is that they are use to dynamic speakers. I had never heard an electrostat speaker or headphone until I got my he60's. So they were my first experience of electrostats.

Ya, that's it. My main point is that in my opinion, the age old argument that electrostats tend to lack visceral bass relative to dymamic speakers - while it may well be true, and in my experience with speakers is at least partially true - is really a moot point when it comes to headphone listening because by definition NO headphones hit you in the chest with bass! What people might be saying is that they think electrostats, in general, lack a certain quality of bass that makes it seem realistic sonically speaking. I can't really argue this point except to say that when it comes to the HE90, Omega II, and even the 404's, that has not been my experience.

Quote:

The Ps-1's don't really count as no headphone over a $1000 can produce that kind of hitting your eardrums feeling.

I've been real quiet about it, but I think the Edition 7 bass is as good or better in terms of "hitting your eardrums". Not quite as refined and textured as the PS-1 bass, but it has greater weight, presense, and authority. There are all sorts of other things at play, not the least of which is that they have a very different overall presentation. The PS-1 are smoother, more musical, and "laid back" (if you can imagine that expression being applied to the PS-1's), while the Edition 7's are more forward, detailed, and engaging, with a much wider soundstage. Kind of a toss up at this point it terms of which I like better; both have grown on me considerably since I first got them.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch To answer the original question:

Whoa! Right you are. I've been having so much fun in this thread, I've kind of lost track of where I'm at. Hope it hasn't been too much of a distraction. My apologies to the thread starter, etc.

 

[SimpJee]

Have any of you guys figured that the electrostat companies are waiting until a set of dynamic headphones (or sets) get in the range of its highest end to make an addition to their line?

It's all about money, why spend money to make products that no competitor can match when their newest product is 15 years old and hasn't been beaten by the competition.

Just a theory really

 

[Wmcmanus]

Yes, what catscratch said in post #16. All of that was good, and true. My esperience has been exactly as he's described. There is no sense in quoting it because I'm in full agreement with every word.

Until I heard the HE90/HEV90, I thought the R10's were the cat's meow. The Orpheus really does become the instrument in question and you do quit trying to listen for this or that, and just enjoy the music like you're there. No need to analyze. The R10's come close, but can't quite disappear totally.

Right on the mark about the canalphone market being poised for takeoff as well.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimpJee Have any of you guys figured that the electrostat companies are waiting until a set of dynamic headphones (or sets) gets in the range of its highest end to make an addition to their line? It's all about money, why spend money to make products that no competitor can match when their newest product is 15 years old and hasn't been beaten by the competition. Just a theory really

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This probably applies to Stax with the Omega II. In a recent (meaning several months ago) thread which was discussing the possibility of an Omega III, I recall someone making a reference to the fact that Stax has stated that they're quite happy with the Omega II sales. So why spend all of that money on R&D and product design just to kill the market for one of their best products? For $200-$300 headphones, it's a differerent story altogether, but at the high end there is only so much demand.

 

[SimpJee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This probably applies to Stax with the Omega II. In a recent (meaning several months ago) thread which was discussing the possibility of an Omega III, I recall someone making a reference to the fact that Stax has stated that they're quite happy with the Omega II sales. So why spend all of that money on R&D and product design just to kill the market for one of their best products? For $200-$300 headphones, it's a differerent story altogether, but at the high end there is only so much demand.

Exactly.

So do you think they will be upgrading their $200-$300 headphones? Maybe an addition to the SR-001s, or are there newer electrostats in that price range?

 

[KenB]

Mike, I can certainly say that, compared to every dynamic headphone I have tried and currently own, including Grado RS-1, Sony CD-3000, Sony SA-5000, Shure E4C (canalphone), and Senn HD-650, my STAX SR-404 (w/ SR-313 Energizer) is superior in every regard except, perhaps, comfort (and styling!). I would not know if "electrostatics" are universally better than "dynamics", but the STAX system I purchased, after much research and internal debate, has surpassed its competitors sonically with margin to spare. They are simply incredible. I kept the CD3K's, E4C's, and HD650's for other purposes; but, for heavy duty listening enjoyment, the SR-404's are my "Go To" cans. As a result, I am no longer engaged in a buy/sell/trade hunt for the "best" headphone. I believe that I have found it.

KenB

P.S. I agree with others who have stated that the bass is not deficient in any respect; in fact, it's phenomenal! As a drummer, I am partial to the lower frequency spectrum, especially the impact from the kick drum. If someone told me I could get more bass from the STAX SR-007 (Omega II), I would say "not interested." I don't want a single decibel of additional bass than I'm getting now from these SR-404's. They are beautifully balanced and linear with all frequencies in the right proportion for a totally satisfying listening experience, regardless of music genre.

 

[Nik]

I had all the electrostatics (exept the BO), but all I had with all the drivers I used with them, respect to any dynamic cans have less IMPACT ! This is sure, may be is the highest transparece of the electrostatics... but I find this lack of impact not a positive thing for a natural sound. The music we hear in headphones is not only timbre, tonal blance, bass or hi, med... but even the way they adopt to give the music to the ears of the listener.

The Qualia 010 has the transparence of the best electrostatic and plus the highest impact... but others problems they have... and the sound is not yet so natural at my ears.

I never heard a BO, but I think impossible they have the same impact of a dynamic cans...

Best!
Nicola

 

[kartik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakedtoes Those who has STAX or other electro static headphone systems pls comment.. How is it compare to RS1 with tube amps.. Is electro static direction the way to go?? thanks

Without a doubt!. I was dynamic till I heard my rig with my new electrostats and I've been held static since! They are more expensive but overall are worth it.

 

[mikeg]

The thread starter (i.e., me) appreciates any, and all of your comments. It's a fine discussion, and I really look forward to my first chance to hear an HE90; i.e., when agile-one gets his. BTW, although as headphone users we may still be a drop in the bucket, I believe that since Head-Fi is growing by leaps and bounds, we will more strongly influence the market to advance the state-of-the-art. It's interesting that despite headphone listeners' supposedly being so few, fine electrostatic headphones for their day, such as the Koss ESP9, were widely available and purchased about 50 years ago. Also BTW, how come there is so little mention of Koss as a producer of electrostatic headphones. Have they been dismissed by the elites among us who consider themselves to be upper crust audiophiles? Or perhaps this group dismisses the Koss product because of its much lower price. Anyway, I appologize for my minor rant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Whoa! Right you are. I've been having so much fun in this thread, I've kind of lost track of where I'm at. Hope it hasn't been too much of a distraction. My apologies to the thread starter, etc.

 

[mikeg]

It's sad that Stax is satisfied with the Omega II, which everyone seems to agree has inferior performance to the 15+ year old HE90. I hope that Stax will not remain satisfied with their second class status in this regard. Perhaps Stax represents a real hope for developing a product that matches or exceeds the performance of the HE90, but at a much lower and therefore realistic price. From my own brief experience with the Omega II (i.e., I've heard it twice at meets), I found it to be a real disappointment, and I found the R10 to be substantially superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This probably applies to Stax with the Omega II. In a recent (meaning several months ago) thread which was discussing the possibility of an Omega III, I recall someone making a reference to the fact that Stax has stated that they're quite happy with the Omega II sales. So why spend all of that money on R&D and product design just to kill the market for one of their best products? For $200-$300 headphones, it's a differerent story altogether, but at the high end there is only so much demand.

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeg It's sad that Stax is satisfied with the Omega II, which everyone seems to agree has inferior performance to the 15+ year old HE90. I hope that Stax will not remain satisfied with their second class status in this regard. Perhaps Stax represents a real hope for developing a product that matches or exceeds the performance of the HE90, but at a much lower and therefore realistic price. From my own brief experience with the Omega II (i.e., I've heard it twice at meets), I found it to be a real disappointment, and I found the R10 to be substantially superior.

While I am a fan and owner of the Omega II, I do regard the Sony R10 to be the superior transducer. Bring on the Omega III.

 

[nakedtoes]

Hi guys i just got a very old set of STAX SR-80MX which is in very mint condition. The Ear speaker model is the SR-80PRO.. My very first impression with STAX when i hear them with my own source is YES THEY ARE THE BEST!!.. if resolution, clarity and high detail level is yr preference then STAX is the best choice. I am yet to hear the latest 404 or even the Omega II.. But I believe they are even much better consider the price.. They sound fast and got impact but it isn’t deep enough compare to dynamic headphones like RS1 or even MS2i.. I like the airy sound of the STAX.. the closer dynamic phone that give me the airy sound is the HD600.. The STAX dun sound like any dynamic cans not even the ER4S come that close. I will keep my ER4S for the isolation.. Long live STAX!!!..

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimpJee So do you think they will be upgrading their $200-$300 headphones? Maybe an addition to the SR-001s, or are there newer electrostats in that price range?

No, or at least I wasn't think about that specifically. I just threw the $200-$300 price range out to illustrate my point that there is a much bigger market space at the lower price points, so there will naturally be more models of all types to pick and choose from. Venturing into the high end, high price martket is something that companies will do with extreme caution. In Stax's case, the Omega II's are the clear cut top of the line current production electrostat headphone.

So why would Stax effectively destroy the market they're now enjoying with this successful model by creating a new model that would make it obsolete? Sure, eventually they will, if only to show that they're "keeping current" and are being innovative, which may in turn slightly boost the sales of all of their other models because of the positive exposure. But this is likely to be slow in coming unless there is some pressure coming from somewhere else (i.e., high end electrostat headphone models introduced by other companies that are creating a competitive threat).