[boodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kartik No confusion here!

ooops.... sorry mate

 

[IstariAsuka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Everyone talks about how low their headphones go... It's a matter of pride to participate in the low frequency limbo. Headphones are rated down into the 20s... Wow! Isn't that great! Well, what exactly does that mean? Here is the formula for calculating the length of sound waves... SPEED OF SOUND (1,130 feet per second) divided by the FREQUENCY (in hz) = LENGTH OF THE WAVE (in feet) Got that? ...At 25hz the length of a single sound wave is around 45 feet long. That means that a single wave 45 feet long has to come out of the speaker in one second to reproduce that sound into the air. That's the length of a semi-truck coming out of your speakers every second. OK... here's my question... What kind of fifth dimensional physics does it require to be able to hear 25 hz when it's not .75 feet away, but pushed up a couple of milimeters from your ears? The headphones may put out that frequency, but even with the most golden ears, you aren't going to be able to hear it because there is no room for the wave to exist in the tiny gap between your headphone drivers and your noggin! Do the math, and you'll quickly find out that the lowest frequencies that you can hear up close against your head like that is somewhere around 100hz.

I fail to see why the entire sound wave must be in the air before entering into your ear for you to be able to hear it. It should enter into your ear from one end of the wave to the other, continuously, regardless of whether the whole thing is just kinda kinda floating in the air in its entirety before hand or if its being actively sent down your ear canal as its being made, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am, but with my limited knowledge of sound waves, I don't see why space is a problem.

I mean, there's an easy way to test this. Go grab a tone generator and try it out with your headphones. Then you'll know for sure whether you can hear tones below 100Hz that they're making. Have you tried this? *goes to look for a tone generator*

Edit: Found one, and values down to 15Hz could be heard pretty easily. 25Hz was a no-brainer. If we aren't able to hear these frequencies when produced by headphones, why is it so easy to hear them?

 

[philodox]

You can also prove that 2+2=5 with creative wordplay... this is getting silly.

 

[Zanth]

I am a strong advocate of finding the sound one is after by hitting the headphones first. No matter what is upstream, the overall "signature" of the headphones is going to remain. If R10's are it! for someone, then if the wallet is able, go for it! If it is the HE90's, HP-1's, Koss 35's...whatever! $12000090 or 20 bucks, get what one likes, then go to the source and try to pump in as much cash as possible into it (within reason, I do believe diminishing returns comes in strongly at 5kish, perhaps lower depending on the design.)

I voted for both, because in the end, I believe in synergy first. RS-1/RA-1, excellent combo. Paired with silver IC's and a bright source, and ears may bleed. HD600's with copper IC's an EMP Anniversary and a warm source may induce a coma.

Once the overall sound has been chosen via the tranducers, one wants to maximize their potential. You don't want to castrate the phones straight away by killing resolution, dynamics, PRaT etc, by choosing a poor front-end.

All of the other stuff that was written concerning physics, math etc., fun read but matters are far simpler:

1) Choose overall sound (if it be a Grado, then one can expect an overall Grado house sound with the current line and have it refined to a high degree with the RS-1's)

2) Drop some serious cash into a well reviewed/received source with perhaps the potential for upgrades/mods/trade-ins

3) Amp those phones!

4) Tweak/attenuate/equalize with cables and tubes

5) scrap the whole thing and buy a cheapy system and gazlllions of cds/records, cause in the end it should be all about the music

 

[GoRedwings19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth I am a strong advocate of finding the sound one is after by hitting the headphones first. No matter what is upstream, the overall "signature" of the headphones is going to remain. If R10's are it! for someone, then if the wallet is able, go for it! If it is the HE90's, HP-1's, Koss 35's...whatever! $12000090 or 20 bucks, get what one likes, then go to the source and try to pump in as much cash as possible into it (within reason, I do believe diminishing returns comes in strongly at 5kish, perhaps lower depending on the design.) I voted for both, because in the end, I believe in synergy first. RS-1/RA-1, excellent combo. Paired with silver IC's and a bright source, and ears may bleed. HD600's with copper IC's an EMP Anniversary and a warm source may induce a coma. Once the overall sound has been chosen via the tranducers, one wants to maximize their potential. You don't want to castrate the phones straight away by killing resolution, dynamics, PRaT etc, by choosing a poor front-end. All of the other stuff that was written concerning physics, math etc., fun read but matters are far simpler: 1) Choose overall sound (if it be a Grado, then one can expect an overall Grado house sound with the current line and have it refined to a high degree with the RS-1's) 2) Drop some serious cash into a well reviewed/received source with perhaps the potential for upgrades/mods/trade-ins 3) Amp those phones! 4) Tweak/attenuate/equalize with cables and tubes 5) scrap the whole thing and buy a cheapy system and gazlllions of cds/records, cause in the end it should be all about the music

i will agree to a certain point. Put the music argument aside for one second. Whenever I buy a headphone regardless of it's value I need to hear it and then from my taste's deduce if I think it has potential to shine brighter.

Let's say I choose The Rs-1's. As these headphones I am the most familiar. Now I am willing to spend money on them because I like them and I want to explore the potential they may/may not have. I will run the Rs-1's in a very modest system and see how it performs. If Like it enough then I will splash out.

This is what I won't do. It's a known fact I don't like the R-10's. Now it doesn't sing in a very modest system even though there may be potential. But I will not spend a single penny on it to explore it's potential. If this was the case I would of got a singlepower or cary ages ago. If it needs a $$$$ amp and $$$$ source then it is flawed. Why? Because it needs all this equipment to gloss over the flaws I find and the source and amp to introduce new attributes to the sound to make it "better". The fact the I haven't seen them in 6 months is a testament to that fact.

I am a big believer in source first. But since coming to headfi I am less so. Whenever some headfier criticises a headphone for a flaw then headfiers are wuick to jump on them blaming source and amps and interconnects and all this. It could be the simple case of you don't "get" them much like I don't "get" the R-10's. Out of the 1200 owners, 1199 "get" them. I am the one who think they are a pile of crap.

Now for your music analogy. Yes it should always be about the music. But for some reason on headfi, if you don't have 5000 cd's and 10000 lp's then you are not a music lover. If this was the case and I didn't love music would I spend silly amounts of money to be able to deliver the music in a way pleases me? No, of course not. I don't have a large cd collection. Actually it;s small but I do keep listening to the over and over and over again. If it wasn't about the music I would of been happy with my hd600's/xcansv2.0 and my dvd player or PS2 as source. It's the love of music why I upgraded them.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRedwings19 Now for your music analogy. Yes it should always be about the music. But for some reason on headfi, if you don't have 5000 cd's and 10000 lp's then you are not a music lover. If this was the case and I didn't love music would I spend silly amounts of money to be able to deliver the music in a way pleases me? No, of course not. I don't have a large cd collection. Actually it;s small but I do keep listening to the over and over and over again. If it wasn't about the music I would of been happy with my hd600's/xcansv2.0 and my dvd player or PS2 as source. It's the love of music why I upgraded them.

No no, I think you mistook me. What I was getting at was that if one didn't want to go with my opinion regarding points 1 through 4, then point 5 could work also, just ditch the entire insanity that is hi-fi/audiophile land of gear and just get something cheap that pleases well enough and buy music, get off the merry-go-round and hit the roots of it all, the music.

Regarding the rest of your post, I totally agree. Find the sound one likes. You and I both like the RS-1's, from there to get the most out of them a solid source and a well matched amp will do them the most justice, but they can still shine out of the headphone jack of a pcdp. I know, that is how I first used them!

 

[GoRedwings19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth No no, I think you mistook me. What I was getting at was that if one didn't want to go with my opinion regarding points 1 through 4, then point 5 could work also, just ditch the entire insanity that is hi-fi/audiophile land of gear and just get something cheap that pleases well enough and buy music, get off the merry-go-round and hit the roots of it all, the music. Regarding the rest of your post, I totally agree. Find the sound one likes. You and I both like the RS-1's, from there to get the most out of them a solid source and a well matched amp will do them the most justice, but they can still shine out of the headphone jack of a pcdp. I know, that is how I first used them!

It wasn't directed at you. It is a thought that quite often pops up on headfi. It's quite irritating because you are looked as a gearhead and I suppose their could be or quite a bit in truth in that. But it was always directly because of the music.

I do like the Rs-1's a lot for some reason. Actually I am on the lookout for a Ra-1 just to try out. I owned it before but for some dumbass reason never tried it with the Rs-1.

I'm actually in the middle of downgrading my system. I am getting rid of quite a few amps and stuff.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IstariAsuka Edit: Found one, and values down to 15Hz could be heard pretty easily. 25Hz was a no-brainer. If we aren't able to hear these frequencies when produced by headphones, why is it so easy to hear them?

That's interesting! I know with speakers, unless the room is large enough, you can't get that frequency out of them. I wonder what the physics is that explains why they're audible in cans? Perhaps it has something to do with your idea of the wave being pushed through you like you say... I'll ask around and see if I can find someone who knows about this. I'll have access to a signal generator next week. I'll see what I can come up with.

See ya
Steve

 

[Ramtha604]

I don't think it really matters if the wave was able to finish a cycle or not before reaching the ears, if it's there, you'll feel it (= hear it)... also I don't think it takes a room of a specific minimum size to hear a certain frequency for the same reasons (besides a wave can bounce back from several walls to finish a cycle in a small room, that's the reason small rooms sound more boomy, because you'll hear the same wave several times (echos).

 

[bigshot]

I think you're on to something there... I know that a larger room makes low frequencies easier to hear, because I heard the same system in two rooms and saw the results of the tone sweep.

Perhaps the reason the smaller room swallows up the lower frequencies has to do with the reflection off the walls like you say... maybe if the waveform isn't able to complete itself, the reflected wave is also incomplete, which means that the low frequency only passes by once, instead of bouncing around filling the room. If the room is big enough to fit half of the wave, it isn't as serious, because the mirror image of the reflected wave completes the length of it. With headphones, reflected sound isn't even an aspect of what you hear, so you hear the waveform once through as it shoots out at 45 feet per second. Does that sound right?

See ya
Steve

 

[Ramtha604]

I'd say that a large room makes very low frequencies easier to hear, because they're not overshadowed by resonances in the mid to high bass like in smaller rooms. The fact that you hear any bass through headphones at all in my eyes/ears proves that wavelength doesn't really matter in that regard... you cannot hear if a wave has completed a full cycle when it reaches your eardrum or not.

 

[Ramtha604]

on topic:

Of course it's a chain of components that delivers the sourcematerial to your brain, so every part of the chain hast to be up to task... however I'd say the most common mistakes in audio (especiall low to mid fi) are insufficient amplification, followed by phones with 'very' uneven frequency response... the source won't really matter so much until these main factors are taken care of.

 

[bln]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahamaman Post numbers 42 and 72 from bigshot are two of the most articulate and insightful I've read in some time, maybe ever, and ought be required reading before joining head-fi.

Seconded.

 

[PhilS]

I may be confused, but isn't there now an admission from the author of Post number 72 that his answer to the scientific puzzle that consumes at least half of that post may not be correct?

 

[cannedheat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bln Seconded.

Thirded.

Unfortunately, I must disagree with Bigshot's views of 2 channel SACDs. I suppose our ears different and I can detect SACD's benefits (on well recorded source material), while others cannot.