[Guidostrunk]

it's capito

 
Quote:

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way!" — Jim Malone
I'd say a bit of disproportionate retribution is called for against the school there.
 
Rephrased earlier quote...They expel/suspend your kid, you shut down the school system. Capice?
 
Schools nowadays blur the line way too much between retaliation/self defense. I got caught in the latter of the two situations listed, and guess what? I nearly get expelled. You can tell I've got issues with my school system. I probably need a psych workup at this point.
 

 

 

[TheGomdoRi]

My 2cents:

If you are sending your kids to an expensive school and the school has a strict zero tolerance policy on violence, then the kid who strikes your child will be solely suffering the consequences of his/her actions (most likely expulsion) as long as your child doesn't fight back and defend/brawl/etc. So in this case it could be the best interest of your child that he continues to receive good education. This doesn't really have anything to do with "standing up for yourself" but more along the lines of "what's best for my kid?"
 
But if he's getting jumped/mugged then yeah it's a pretty dangerous situation and it's pretty much human nature to fight back. However, this is also still dangerous as muggers as usually armed and targets rarely are, and will most likely escalate the fight. If it's unavoidable then perhaps as a last resort, physically defending yourself is suited.
 
Your reasons are completely valid but I'm going to respectfully disagree.
- You can always talk to your son about the dangers of a physical altercation, what the difference between "fighting" and "defending himself" is, and when/where it's appropriate. Don't know how old your kid is, but a few talks and he'll surely understand and exercise good judgement for himself
- Hitting back can also escalate the situation and danger/physical harm
- If you are genuinely concerned about his self-esteem and ability to defend himself in case of an avoidable situation, consider boxing/martial arts
 
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

I never got in trouble for hitting back, either at school or at home. It was expected and the schools were good at punishing those who started fights.

But times have changed. If the school has a zero tolerance policy and this wasn't the first incident, I'd go apply for a restraining order against the bully. Yes, even a five year-old. When everyone is freaked out about liability and expenses, that's the way you have to hit back. I'd also have a lawyer send a nasty letter to the kid's parents and school threatening to sue for medical costs, etc. The bully will get straightened out because they won't want to pay for legal stuff.

Still, I like self-defense. It worked for me.

 

[Parall3l]

OP, I'm not sure what the legal conditions are like where you are, but in Australia, if some one hits you, it counts as assault, you are legally allowed to retaliate with equal force. Not to mention kids, even teenagers my age, doesn't believe in talking. Violence rarely occurs in my high school but when it happens, no one will back down. This is because most younger people believe that not using force is a sign of cowardice. If I were you, I'd teach the kid that its ok to hit back, but emphasise that he should never hit anyone first. (unless they are about to hit them of course, that is also retaliation with equal force)

 

[nikp]

Quote:

OP, I'm not sure what the legal conditions are like where you are, but in Australia, if some one hits you, it counts as assault, you are legally allowed to retaliate with equal force. Not to mention kids, even teenagers my age, doesn't believe in talking. Violence rarely occurs in my high school but when it happens, no one will back down. This is because most younger people believe that not using force is a sign of cowardice. If I were you, I'd teach the kid that its ok to hit back, but emphasise that he should never hit anyone first. (unless they are about to hit them of course, that is also retaliation with equal force)

Not assault, it's battery. Assault is a threat of physical contact. Minors cannot be involved in criminal activities unless they have a guilty intention. They're kids, come on.  
 

 

[Parall3l]

Quote:

Not assault, it's battery. Assault is a threat of physical contact. Minors cannot be involved in criminal activities unless they have a guilty intention. They're kids, come on.  
 

Even though they are kids, this situation is very serious, the things you learn when you are kid tend to last for a time, at least IMO. Personally, I think the OP should have a long talk with his kid. Almost everyone will probably find themselves in a situation when some one is intending to harm them physically, it can have a huge impact on their self esteem if they don't know how to handle the situation mentally.

 

[nikp]

Quote:

Even though they are kids, this situation is very serious, the things you learn when you are kid tend to last for a time, at least IMO. Personally, I think the OP should have a long talk with his kid. Almost everyone will probably find themselves in a situation when some one is intending to harm them physically, it can have a huge impact on their self esteem if they don't know how to handle the situation mentally.

I think it's best for the child to stand up and make the decision himself. If a child is instructed for all his life, he will become dependant and it's not a great thing. Leave him and let him learn his lesson. 

 

 

[Parall3l]

Quote:

I think it's best for the child to stand up and make the decision himself. If a child is instructed for all his life, he will become dependant and it's not a great thing. Leave him and let him learn his lesson. 

 

 
I can't agree with you more on that, but kids will be kids, you'll need to guide them in the right direction. 

 

[LFF]

Here is what my father taught me:
 
Never hit anyone on purpose and only strike back as a form of defense or if there is no other option. "An eye for an eye makes the world blind" is true, therefore, if someone takes an eye from you, make sure you take their head off.
 
It served me well and continues to do so.

 

[Spareribs]

I used to be bullied a lot as a kid. In some ways it's good because it's made me thick skinned and I am never really offended. 
 
In my opinion, I would leave it alone unless it escalates which I kind of doubt it will. If he is to be bullied after the age of 10, in my opinion, there should be some real concern and answers should be sought. I remember fighting one of my bullies when I was around 12 and he kicked my face and I had to go to the hospital. But he did stop bulling me.
 
I also remembered being bullied by girls when I was in elementary school and strangely, as a result I was scared of teenage girls and women for a long time.  These days, it's corporations that are the deceptive bullies.
 

 

[tvrboy]

I would ask for the phone number of the bully's parents and have a talk with them first. That seems like the most logical step.
 
If that doesn't work, tell your kid to hit back. Early childhood experiences can be very crucial to development. I wouldn't want my child to grow up in fear of others.
 
Threatening to get a restraining order seems like a good idea, but you will forever be known as "the guy who sues 5 year olds" even though that is not the case. Anything involving legal action and a 5 year old will make you the bad guy, no matter what the real situation is. If you did go through with it and the bully had to be removed from class to comply with a restraining order, it's a guarantee that everybody at school will know and your kid will get picked on 10 times as much as now. Think of the lady who got burned by McDonald's coffee. She actually got hurt, but now she is the butt of all jokes about our litigious society. Would you really wanna make your kid the butt of those jokes for his (her?) entire childhood?

 

[jpelg]

No public school official will ever make a statement that they condone any form of violence, even in the form of self-defense.You just won't hear it come out of their mouths, so don't wait for it.
 
Every self-defense situation has a vast number of variables that can shift the situation one way or another. It's a challenge to teach a 5yo how to discern & process all these variables to react in the most appropriate way legally, morally, & (most importantly) with regard to protecting one's well-being. However, it's not impossible even at that age.
 
I would teach my kids the differences between instigating a fight vs.defending oneself, to protect themselves always, and worry about the other stuff later. If they did that, they'd never be in trouble with me.

 

[marvin]

Quote:

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way!" — Jim Malone
I'd say a bit of disproportionate retribution is called for against the school there.
 
Rephrased earlier quote...They expel/suspend your kid, you shut down the school system. Capice?

 
Good luck with that.
 
Your average school district has financial resources that dwarf that of the average parent. The most likely result is that the school district will win in court and the legal costs will bankrupt the parents. That's really showing the school system who's boss...
 
 
Quote:

I believe the counselor needs counseling, her herself probably got beat up her whole life and the thought of violence terrifies her.

Doubtful. As noted before, the counselor's approach isn't much different from the real world law enforcement approach. Reducing the amount of violence and retaliation is extremely useful in maintaining order.
 
And what applies to you and your kids may not apply to kids in general. Many targets of physical violence will lose badly if they fight back against their aggressors. "Run and tell the teacher" may result in better outcomes for the average kid even if it results in worse outcomes for your kid. It's the same line of thinking that the police push with the "don't resist in a mugging/robbery/carjacking" message. A bit off target for some, but useful for the majority.

 

[Guidostrunk]

Well you my friend can let your kids get beat up( if you have any) by not retaliating. Running and telling a teacher IMO only fuels the fire of the bully,and things only get worse until the bully is put in it's place. dealt with it over the last 2 years. And as far as " real world" law enforcement approach, I haven't seen a decline over the last 20 years in school bullies so IMO the approach is a complete failure. And the hole carjacking/mugging topic is a complete derailment of the thread!

Quote:

 
Good luck with that.
 
Your average school district has financial resources that dwarf that of the average parent. The most likely result is that the school district will win in court and the legal costs will bankrupt the parents. That's really showing the school system who's boss...
 
 
Doubtful. As noted before, the counselor's approach isn't much different from the real world law enforcement approach. Reducing the amount of violence and retaliation is extremely useful in maintaining order.
 
And what applies to you and your kids may not apply to kids in general. Many targets of physical violence will lose badly if they fight back against their aggressors. "Run and tell the teacher" may result in better outcomes for the average kid even if it results in worse outcomes for your kid. It's the same line of thinking that the police push with the "don't resist in a mugging/robbery/carjacking" message. A bit off target for some, but useful for the majority.

 

 

[marvin]

 
Quote:

Well you my friend can let your kids get beat up( if you have any) by not retaliating.

I wasn't recommending a particular course of action, just explaining one of the reasons why schools generally have a "zero tolerance" policy on violence. And while effectively fighting back is a reasonable approach for an individual, it doesn't help the school reduce the total amount of bullying when the bully moves onto a target less able to defend themselves. 
 
  
Quote:

Running and telling a teacher IMO only fuels the fire of the bully,and things only get worse until the bully is put in it's place.

And if the bully doesn't get "put in their place"? Poor target selection happens, but bullies often have the upper hand in physical strength and popularity with their peers. 
  
 
Quote:

And as far as " real world" law enforcement approach, I haven't seen a decline over the last 20 years in school bullies so IMO the approach is a complete failure.

You're assuming the school's approach to violence is designed to reduce bullying. It probably isn't. As far as I can tell, it's designed to keep order and to minimize the school's exposure to lawsuits.
 
 
Quote:

And the hole carjacking/mugging topic is a complete derailment of the thread!

Not intended to be a derailment. It is intended to be an example of a policy where acquiescing to unjustified violence is the safer course of action for the majority, even if some individuals are able to mount a more effective response.