[CopperFox]

I don't think there's any visible difference between any two different kinds of transducers. It's all in your head.

 

[robert766]

Some quick points.

• The problem is the internet and the overuse of hyperbole. In my limited experience amps and dacs matter but the differences are usually more subtle and nuanced that you'd read on most threads here. And that's fine. Because nuances do matter when you're investing time and money in your hobby. How much they matter is a personal preference.
• There's no right answer to your question. I think subjective taste and synergy matters more than some hard rule you should spend X% on your headphones and X% on your downstream gear.
• You don't have to spend all your budget either. Maybe the best system (the one that sounds best to you) you could buy within your budget cost much less.
• Think about why you want to upgrade your current set up. What do you want to achieve sound-wise by buying new equipement. Then do some research on what are the best ways to get there.
• Be patient. I know the excitement of having a budget and wanting to buy new stuff. All those good looking headphones and amplifiers will still be available in a couple of weeks or months.

Enjoy yourself. Doing research, listening and making your mind up is half the fun.

 

[MrPanda]

People hear different things, and I do agree with you that I hear the Dragonfly to be brighter overall. I’ve never had that volume problem though, although I’ll likely change my habits at this point to make sure that I check the volume before putting my IEMs in!

It happens a lot with Windows 10 -- the system loses the Dragonfly, then when Dragonfly restarts the volume defaults to 100% - OUCH - I haven't experimented to see if it's a problem when using exclusive mode, but some sound sources don't play well with that. I've seen other people report that, not sure how common the issue is. I'm using a Dell laptop from around 2018.

 

[canfabulous]

Some quick points.

• The problem is the internet and the overuse of hyperbole. In my limited experience amps and dacs matter but the differences are usually more subtle and nuanced that you'd read on most threads here. And that's fine. Because nuances do matter when you're investing time and money in your hobby. How much they matter is a personal preference.
• There's no right answer to your question. I think subjective taste and synergy matters more than some hard rule you should spend X% on your headphones and X% on your downstream gear.
• You don't have to spend all your budget either. Maybe the best system (the one that sounds best to you) you could buy within your budget cost much less.
• Think about why you want to upgrade your current set up. What do you want to achieve sound-wise by buying new equipement. Then do some research on what are the best ways to get there.
• Be patient. I know the excitement of having a budget and wanting to buy new stuff. All those good looking headphones and amplifiers will still be available in a couple of weeks or months.

Enjoy yourself. Doing research, listening and making your mind up is half the fun.

That's great advice... where were you a couple of months ago???

 

[ADUHF]

That's great advice... where were you a couple of months ago???

You literally took the words right out of my mouth, canfabulous!

 

[ADUHF]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the minimum damping factor recommended for distortion-free sound for both higher and lower impedance headphones is somewhere on the order of 8-10 times the source or amplifying impedance. Lower ratios will probably give you some more volume, but also a bit more noticeable distortion.

In case anyone doesn't know what I'm referencing above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

I have heard a number of people here also refer to "impedance matching" or "mismatching", which is a somewhat different concept that refers more to maximizing the transfer of power in an electrical system by literally matching the impedances of a source and load...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching

I have made the mistake of confusing the two concepts as well. However, I believe the damping factor referenced above actually has more to do with maximizing the signal voltage, which relates more to the concept of impedance bridging...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_bridging

I suppose the "ideal" damping factor in an audio system (like a pair of headphones and an amp) involves a bit of both concepts though. Because the goal is to bridge the source and load impedances in such a way that the volume or power levels are maximized, while simultaneously minimizing any audible distortion in the system (which involves more signal voltage). I think when most people here refer to impedance "matching" though, what they're really talking about is properly bridging the impedances in their setup for both maximum volume and minimum (audible) distortion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you would really want the impedances in your headphones and amp to be perfectly matched, because that would most likely cause a noticeable degradation in sound quality vs. a system which is properly bridged.

 

[ruinedx]

Every now and again one of these threads pop up and it is almost always the same:
The folks who dig to buy amps and compare them with each other will say that the amp makes a big change.
The folks who prefer to listen to stuff blind will say that amps hardly ever matter.
I can tell you that I most definitely can’t hear a difference between a Milo and Magni driving an HD800/HD600/Q701/HE500.
Get an amp which is a) wellbuilt b) comes with the right connections c) will power all your headphones...and you’re done. My Heresy does the job just as well as my earlier V200 and Burson amps. No need to break the bank unless you are looking for bragging rights

Amps DO make a significant difference, sometimes even a large difference.

But that difference doesn't necessarily correlate with price. My current $250 PC "audiophile" EVGA NU AUDIO soundcard sounds better with the HD700 & HD820 than a $2000 Musical Fidelity MX HPA/DAC setup did.

I think the best argument for an expensive HPA is something like the SPL PHONITOR X with its headphone matrix crossfeed that really allows you to alter and tweak the presentation in a way other devices don't - or if you simply need more power and a cheaper device doesn't provide it, though again my soundcard betrays that argument as testing has showed it matching or beating other HPAs in power that are double or quadruple the price.

 

[PointyFox]

Sorry, not really trying to start an argument here, but I'm genuinely interested in understanding what is driving your statement. Are you saying all headphones and all headphone amps don't make any sound difference over listening to cheap headphones over a smartphone line out? Or are you saying that spending money on those things isn't worth it to you personally?

No, I'm saying that the headphone itself makes up most of the sound quality and that in a blind test, I doubt anyone would be able to discern differences between amplifiers provided: 1. There is nothing wrong with them. 2. They can provide enough "power" (which most can). 3. You don't have some huge impedance mismatch. 4. They don't have some "extra feature" that alters the sound. It actually goes a bit beyond me just doubting. There have been many decades worth of testing tens of thousands of audiophiles and no one has been able to prove they can tell the difference between decent amps. Same applies to DACs and cables. If you want to hear more about it check out the Sound Science forum. I'm not allowed to talk about sound science in the sound magic sections.

 

[Mink]

Let's get back to the original question of this thread: "Is it foolhardy (or wasteful) to buy top-notch headphones without a top-notch amplifier?"
My answer is: No.
And reading all the comments I think it is safe to say most agree with me.
Arguably I had set the wrong tone a bit with my reaction, it certainly wasn't my intention to start an argument about whether amps matter or not. Basically all I was saying is that headphones have a bigger say in the sound than amps and DACs,

 

[ADUHF]

Forgive me for thinkin out loud here a bit. But I'm still sort of a newbie here. And still tryin to rap my mind around what makes some amps sound "good" and others less good (while simultaneously trying to finish filing my taxes).

But if all the gibberish I just said in my last post above about "bridging" and "damping factors" is more or less correct, then does that mean that a "good amp" is one with a whole lot of noise-free power, and also a fairly high (ie greater than 10) damping factor, because that gives you both the maximum signal and volume, and also the least distortion?

And if that is true, then would a good lower-cost amp, with comparatively little power, be one which also has a lower damping factor... but not so low as to cause any audible distortion (iow, not significantly less than 8 or 10)?

 

[ADUHF]

Let's get back to the original question of this thread: "Is it foolhardy (or wasteful) to buy top-notch headphones without a top-notch amplifier?"
My answer is: No...

Fwiw, I think I'm still on the fence. And think it has alot to do with what's meant by "top-notch". See my post immediately above for an attempt at trying to better clarify that.

 

[PointyFox]

You'd think distortion would be bad, but some of the worst-measuring amps/DACs are highly praised by some audiophiles as providing the most "liquid" and "dancin'-est" music. *cough* Schiit Yggdrasil *cough*. So YMMV etc.
But yes, you'd want an amp with low output impedance (<1 Ohm typically, though this number can be higher if you have high impedance headphones. You typically want your headphone impedance to be no less than 6x this number) and high signal to noise ratio (> 80 dB or so). Though most signal to noise ratios of amps these days are far beyond the limits of detectability by humans. You'll also want an amp that can power your headphones sufficiently at around 50-70% of the amp's volume limit for "headroom". You can calculate this based on the power spec of the amplifier and the sensitivity spec of your headphones.

 

[ADUHF]

Right on, PointyFox! When I said "an amp with a lot of distortion-free power" above, what I think I really meant was noise-free power. So thank you for pointing that out.

I think both are generally good to have though. And have corrected my post above.

 

[ADUHF]

You typically want your headphone impedance to be no more than 6x this number

Do you mean no less than 6x the ampifier's impedance? Assuming you have an unlimited budget to spend, isn't a higher damping factor usually preferable for better sound quality and minimizing distortion?

 

[PointyFox]

Do you mean no less than 6x the ampifier's impedance? Assuming you have an unlimited budget to spend, isn't a higher damping factor usually preferable for better sound quality and minimizing distortion?

That is correct. I fixed my post. Yes, you want a high damping factor and low output impedance. Though damping factor is almost exclusively used for speaker amps and not headphone amps and uses a 8 Ohm speaker assumption. For headphone amps it would be listed as Ohms output impedance.