[ADUHF]

Part of the answer to the OP's question is whether the high grade headphones are high impedance/planar magnetic or low sensitivity. If the headphone requires near 0.7W to power it well then obviously if you dispense with an amplifier or use a low power one the experience will be poor with lack of volume, distortion and other negatives. However there are plenty of dynamic headphones with high sensitivities that will be easier to drive. These of course won't sound their best without quality amplification but the degradation without a quality amplifier might not be that great. For me I just want the DAC and amplifier to get out of the way, I have a certain regard for them but I'm never going to spend lots for them. For high priced headphones I'm surprised more of them aren't supplied with a suitable flat amplifier as well as being burned-in as part of the package.

To your point, whenever this question comes up in relation to the Senn HD 600 or other higher impedance HPs, the answer here is pretty much always the same-- you need a better amp (or an amp period, if you don't already have one). Many of the lower-cost headamps I've been lookin at lately will have a switch, or in some cases mutiple settings for different headphone impedances though. If you already have something like that, or a higher impedance amp, then you may not need to upgrade to something better for a pair of high impedance headphones.

The flipside to that is that headphones with lower impedance which are easier to drive will generally require a lower impedance amp to deliver the best sound-quality, free of audible distortion. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the minimum damping factor recommended for distortion-free sound for both higher and lower impedance headphones is somewhere on the order of 8-10 times the source or amplifying impedance. Lower ratios will probably give you some more volume, but also a bit more noticeable distortion.

 

[MrPanda]

I think it would depend upon the headphones you choose, and I believe it is possible that you could hear a difference. In my opinion, a big aspect of the decision should be your feature requirements and how you plan to use your new headphones.

I have both a Mojo and a Dragonfly; the former is on duty when I'm at home (sitting in a comfy chair or sitting at my desk, paired with my larger headphones that won't leave the house), and the latter is on duty when I'm out walking with some wired IEMs. The mojo gives me more options for connecting to sources at home but is clunky for walking around with where as the Dragonfly is extremely portable.

Mojo, to me, is smoother and less fatiguing. Dragonfly can be very bright. Mojo doesn't drain phone or tablet battery when in portable use either, since it has its own battery. Mojo sounds great even with very revealing headphones. My dragonfly sometimes resets its volume to 100% at random and its literally deafening so I quit using it.

 

[ruinedx]

I am using MSRP $2399 HD820 with msrp $249 Evga NU Audio soundcard ( https://www.evga.com/articles/01281/evga-nu-audio/ ) and it is overall better sound quality with this headphone than:
Musical Fidelity MX DAC+HPA (MSRP $2000)
Oppo HA-1 (MSRP $1199)
Parasound zDac2 ($499)

So I'd say in some cases you can do just fine with a lower cost HPA/DAC, but there is a lot greater chance of disappointment and getting a poor match due to lack of power or other issue

For portable devices with lesser amps the HD700 I found is easier to drive and provides great sound.

 

[canfabulous]

Mojo, to me, is smoother and less fatiguing. Dragonfly can be very bright. Mojo doesn't drain phone or tablet battery when in portable use either, since it has its own battery. Mojo sounds great even with very revealing headphones. My dragonfly sometimes resets its volume to 100% at random and its literally deafening so I quit using it.

People hear different things, and I do agree with you that I hear the Dragonfly to be brighter overall. I’ve never had that volume problem though, although I’ll likely change my habits at this point to make sure that I check the volume before putting my IEMs in!

 

[hptubes]

I may be out on a limb here. I don't totally agree with a lot of folks here that its headphones first, then the amp, then the DAC. The pairings can make all the difference in the world, and I bought some really nice (and expensive) headphones over the years (and own many of them to this day), and was disappointed in them (and ultimately stopped using them) because the headphone amps I was using weren't a great match, and ultimately made the sound less engaging, fatiguing, boring. Some of them, btw, were not cheap (some were).

I have owned the Dragonfly red since it came out, and I can't listen to it on any headphones for some reason. Ipad, iPhone, computer as source--with any headphone it can drive--doesn't matter, I struggle to listen. The pairing matters. I've run a LOT of $1000+ headphones through it.

Then I take a modified pair of Koss KSCs with some Yaxi pads (total $30?), and pair it with a good headphone amp, and the match is there and I want to listen. I'd take those headphones with my Hugo2/2Go, McIntosh MHA1000, Wells Headtrip, AND others over LCD3s or HE1000s driven by $200 head amps and cheap DACs in many cases (not all, but many).

So I guess my point is get a total $ you want to spend in your head, and maybe look for a total combo that's a great match for each other for that money. I find my Drop HD6xx's to be just as engaging and non-fatiguing as cans that cost 10x on the right amp/DAC combo.

YMMV. I recommend you ask people what the best matched combo of equipment is, not necessarily start at one end or the other. In audio, it sucks, but EVERYTHING matters in the end.

 

[canfabulous]

I may be out on a limb here. I don't totally agree with a lot of folks here that its headphones first, then the amp, then the DAC. The pairings can make all the difference in the world, and I bought some really nice (and expensive) headphones over the years (and own many of them to this day), and was disappointed in them (and ultimately stopped using them) because the headphone amps I was using weren't a great match, and ultimately made the sound less engaging, fatiguing, boring. Some of them, btw, were not cheap (some were).

I have owned the Dragonfly red since it came out, and I can't listen to it on any headphones for some reason. Ipad, iPhone, computer as source--with any headphone it can drive--doesn't matter, I struggle to listen. The pairing matters. I've run a LOT of $1000+ headphones through it.

Then I take a modified pair of Koss KSCs with some Yaxi pads (total $30?), and pair it with a good headphone amp, and the match is there and I want to listen. I'd take those headphones with my Hugo2/2Go, McIntosh MHA1000, Wells Headtrip, AND others over LCD3s or HE1000s driven by $200 head amps and cheap DACs in many cases (not all, but many).

So I guess my point is get a total $ you want to spend in your head, and maybe look for a total combo that's a great match for each other for that money. I find my Drop HD6xx's to be just as engaging and non-fatiguing as cans that cost 10x on the right amp/DAC combo.

YMMV. I recommend you ask people what the best matched combo of equipment is, not necessarily start at one end or the other. In audio, it sucks, but EVERYTHING matters in the end.

It’s certainly true that I started with headphones and then quite quickly realised that I need better amps and then started the never ending cycle of upgrades! It’s why I said some of that budget definitely needs to go on an a DAC/AMP to go with them. I also think that there’s more factors to consider with headphones beyond sound - fit, comfort, looks, etc... it’s wise to have a shot list that you like to use and hear, and then do some source matching to go with the short list.

 

[PointyFox]

For high priced headphones I'm surprised more of them aren't supplied with a suitable flat amplifier as well as being burned-in as part of the package.

Why are you surprised? Neither is necessary.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Every now and again one of these threads pop up and it is almost always the same:
The folks who dig to buy amps and compare them with each other will say that the amp makes a big change.
The folks who prefer to listen to stuff blind will say that amps hardly ever matter.
I can tell you that I most definitely can’t hear a difference between a Milo and Magni driving an HD800/HD600/Q701/HE500.
Get an amp which is a) wellbuilt b) comes with the right connections c) will power all your headphones...and you’re done. My Heresy does the job just as well as my earlier V200 and Burson amps. No need to break the bank unless you are looking for bragging rights

 

[Sefelt103]

@PointyFox
Perhaps surprised was the wrong word, I know why they don't supply an amplifier or burn in the headphone. The customer may already have a headphone amplifier he likes, passing on the cost of an amplifier may make already expensive headphones too expensive, the customer may be unable to utilise the connections to the supplied amplifier, burn-in might not make a tremendous difference to the sound in certain designs and is another cost, some might consider the headphones to be used after this process which may reduce the perceived value of the goods. I quite like the idea (as is sometimes utilised with electrostatic headphones) of selling systems rather than just headphones.

 

[PointyFox]

@PointyFox
Perhaps surprised was the wrong word, I know why they don't supply an amplifier or burn in the headphone. The customer may already have a headphone amplifier he likes, passing on the cost of an amplifier may make already expensive headphones too expensive, the customer may be unable to utilise the connections to the supplied amplifier, burn-in might not make a tremendous difference to the sound in certain designs and is another cost, some might consider the headphones to be used after this process which may reduce the perceived value of the goods. I quite like the idea (as is sometimes utilised with electrostatic headphones) of selling systems rather than just headphones.

Nearly all consumers have several amplifiers already. Their computer, smartphone, TV, DAP, etc.

It would be like packaging silverware with a TV dinner.

 

[Sefelt103]

It would be like packaging silverware with a TV dinner.

By buying a suitable amplifier with the headphones I fail to see how this analogy applies ?

 

[hptubes]

Every now and again one of these threads pop up and it is almost always the same:
The folks who dig to buy amps and compare them with each other will say that the amp makes a big change.
The folks who prefer to listen to stuff blind will say that amps hardly ever matter.
I can tell you that I most definitely can’t hear a difference between a Milo and Magni driving an HD800/HD600/Q701/HE500.
Get an amp which is a) wellbuilt b) comes with the right connections c) will power all your headphones...and you’re done. My Heresy does the job just as well as my earlier V200 and Burson amps. No need to break the bank unless you are looking for bragging rights

My opinion only. What you are suggesting is mathematically the probable outcome, so I can see why most could/would feel this way. I do agree that in a blind test it would be very, very hard to discern differences between most amps alone (sometimes it's easier to hear differences in tube amps that impart a sound that somewhat reflects the power tube chosen). All will sound very, very good with the right source, right connections, right impedance matching, right cans pairings. But there are hit/miss combos of those things that can add or detract from the enjoyment you're getting out of the whole system. I've wasted/tied up a LOT of $ chasing the right combinations of things, only to pull an older piece of gear out to try with a new set of headphones and be more amazed with one of the other (the combo) than I expected/remembered. I'll leave it set up for a while then new stuff arrives and I get the itch.

But amps can make a difference that can be part of the enjoyment equation. You worded your comment as "hardly ever matter" and I would tend to say that mathematically that's probably accurate.

I stand by my earlier opinion, also, that buying a crazy expensive set of headphones and ignoring the upstream may not be the right approach for the OP.

 

[hptubes]

Nearly all consumers have several amplifiers already. Their computer, smartphone, TV, DAP, etc.

It would be like packaging silverware with a TV dinner.

Sorry, not really trying to start an argument here, but I'm genuinely interested in understanding what is driving your statement. Are you saying all headphones and all headphone amps don't make any sound difference over listening to cheap headphones over a smartphone line out? Or are you saying that spending money on those things isn't worth it to you personally?

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

My opinion only. What you are suggesting is mathematically the probable outcome, so I can see why most could/would feel this way. I do agree that in a blind test it would be very, very hard to discern differences between most amps alone (sometimes it's easier to hear differences in tube amps that impart a sound that somewhat reflects the power tube chosen). All will sound very, very good with the right source, right connections, right impedance matching, right cans pairings. But there are hit/miss combos of those things that can add or detract from the enjoyment you're getting out of the whole system. I've wasted/tied up a LOT of $ chasing the right combinations of things, only to pull an older piece of gear out to try with a new set of headphones and be more amazed with one of the other (the combo) than I expected/remembered. I'll leave it set up for a while then new stuff arrives and I get the itch.

But amps can make a difference that can be part of the enjoyment equation. You worded your comment as "hardly ever matter" and I would tend to say that mathematically that's probably accurate.

I stand by my earlier opinion, also, that buying a crazy expensive set of headphones and ignoring the upstream may not be the right approach for the OP.

I have honestly never heard a difference between amps unless it had something to do with impedance mismatching, volume mismatching or indeed if a tube was involved in the process.
On paper there are a number of reasons why X amp should sound different to Y..but when one then adds a set of human ears the bets are off. I’ve seen folks with decades of listening experience and TOTL gear fail to distinguish between an iPhone and a Burson soloist*. I’ve seen people raving about X amp opposed to Y amp...until you hide the merchandise from view..and you get crickets.
90% of all sound quality pertaining to amps is wholly made up in our imaginations. The rest comes down to impedance mismatching and so forth. That is my experience anyway

Edith: *slight correction or indeed additional info to the above post (after just having gotten off the phone with my friend). This was more than just blindtesting an amp against another amp. It was about a “chain” vs another chain. An iPhone 6 vs an Yggdrassil and the Soloist. Headphone was HD800.

 

[hptubes]

I have honestly never heard a difference between amps unless it had something to do with impedance mismatching, volume mismatching or indeed if a tube was involved in the process.
On paper there are a number of reasons why X amp should sound different to Y..but when one then adds a set of human ears the bets are off. I’ve seen folks with decades of listening experience and TOTL gear fail to distinguish between an iPhone and a Burson soloist. I’ve seen people raving about X amp opposed to Y amp...until you hide the merchandise from view..and you get crickets.
90% of all sound quality pertaining to amps is wholly made up in our imaginations. The rest comes down to impedance mismatching and so forth. That is my experience anyway

I don't disagree with you. But unfortunately when really looking for that emotional feeling (which you know when you get it), that 10% can pay off...sometimes. Only sometimes.

I would state my opinion more clearly as...get a good DAC that you like the sound of, feed a Schiit Magni and modify some Koss KSCs with many of the mods you can find online (you might prefer the drivers in the Porta Pros over the KSCs), and you probably will have a very very hard time and expensive time materially beating the quality of sound that comes from that, and it will probably cost you 50x that amount of $ (not exaggerating) to maybe feel like you want that much better equipment for marginally better sound. That setup is going to smoke most of your starter IEMs fed directly out of a phone, and come dangerously close to $3000 cans fed by $3000 amps. Whether that extra $ is worth it to you? That's your decision. I own stuff at both levels, and listen to both regularly. But I struggle to listen to even good headphones fed directly from a phone most of the time....even when they are easy to drive from a phone or ipad. Having a purpose-built amp matters, as does the DAC. My iPhone 10 and recent iPads can't cut it for me, even with the help of a Dragonfly red. If you want better sound from that base setup, buy a $3500 Hugo2/2Go combo and be prepared for the remaining hassle that that setup comes with. YMMV.