[chroot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelus /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure, but it now sounds as though you might be suggesting that there could be some secret or hidden information pertinent to choosing an interconnect for which mathematics does not account. Do you think I should retract my earlier statement about stipulating that the wire has no effect on how a interconnect sounds until after I familiarize myself with the results of empirical research on the subject?

Again, I have no idea what's prompted this, but no -- I'm absolutely not saying that, nor did I ever say anything that could even be construed this way.

- Warren

 

[bluey_02]

Firstly, Warren, you're the man. Secondly, has tourmaline realised his posts have taken up nearly half this thread? Thirdly, tourmaline, give up already, after reading your posts all you seem to be saying is that a more expensive cable sounds better to you, and after reading Warren's comments, a guy who knows his stuff, I believe perception and bias has warped your opinion and reasoning. Plus, all the evidence you seem to be providing is your opinion.

Yeah ok this has been said before in this thread, but, the cryo is not worth the cost when you consider the various cons it has against it (relatively cheap to make, not an amazing difference between that and a cheaper non-cryo copper wire, the dock connector's pins, considering the 'higher-quality' jumbo is only a thicker wire this is made null by the limiting size of the pins, and so on and so forth..). BUT if you want a cable that is the "best" and looks nice and have extremely high quality gear then it might be worth the cost.

I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about concerning whether the cable really is better than a cheaper one but I do know ALO's various prices set off my bullsh*t detector, as they should any sane-minded person ($100 for a freaking 7" cable? Come on...). So no, in my opinion as a small-pocketed, highly critical person, the Cryo is not worth the cost.

 

[chroot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am never biased!

I think this is really my cue to leave this discussion.

Quote:

As i said before, a foremost audio critic measured cables and couldn't explain why they sounded as he heard. Even the measurements he got didn't indicate the performance of that cable. It performed much better then he would expect!

You can believe whoever you'd like to believe... and I'm sure your complete lack of bias will lead you to trust the right people. I think I'll just get back to designing my latest and greatest HDTV reconstruction filter, and see you guys later.

- Warren

 

[rb67]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluey_02 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ($100 for a freaking 7" cable? Come on...).

I agree with everything you said. Just that I think the $100 price for an ALO cable is justified considering the amount of work that is involved. Soldering those pins is a pain in the ass. The construction of a connector must be at least 2-3 hours. It took me about 3.5 for mine. You can check this link to see how I made mine: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232093 Huge pain in the *** and requires a steady soldering hand.

Considering the workmanship is top notch, I think it is fair for him to ask for that much. I'm sure he does other things for a living and for making line outs to be worth it for him, the prices need to be the way they are. Completely reasonable in my book, although I won't be buying one as I can make my own. Now paying for Cryo treatment, on the other hand, is not worth it nor is paying for something purely based upon false claims backed by shady science.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chroot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think this is really my cue to leave this discussion. You can believe whoever you'd like to believe... and I'm sure your complete lack of bias will lead you to trust the right people. I think I'll just get back to designing my latest and greatest HDTV reconstruction filter, and see you guys later. - Warren

Good luck with it, i only trust MY ears. So no matter what somebody sais about a cable, i listen before i judge the cable in question, cheap or expensive!

Most of the people commenting here never even heard real high end cables.

Even in the electronics community things aren't settled, there are engeneers stating that they also hear differences in cables, and some of your colleges don't.

So, because everything is still so contraversial, i still believe my ears and perception of sound. Since i am paying for what i get.

 

[naamanf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good luck with it, i only trust MY ears. So no matter what somebody sais about a cable, i listen before i judge the cable in question. Most of the people commenting here never even heard real high end cables. Even in the electronics community things aren't settled, there are engeneers stating that they also hear differences in cables, and some of your colleges don't. So, because everything is still so contraversial, i still believe my ears and perception of sound. Since i am paying for what i get.

Then say you think they sound better and leave it at that. It you don't know why, you don't know why. Don't try to spread information that your really don't understand or can reasonably back up.

I know why I don't think I can hear a difference in cables. And it's not my hearing. I know the science behind it and can back it up with a strong working knowledge.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluey_02 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Firstly, Warren, you're the man. Secondly, has tourmaline realised his posts have taken up nearly half this thread? Thirdly, tourmaline, give up already, after reading your posts all you seem to be saying is that a more expensive cable sounds better to you, and after reading Warren's comments, a guy who knows his stuff, I believe perception and bias has warped your opinion and reasoning. Plus, all the evidence you seem to be providing is your opinion. Yeah ok this has been said before in this thread, but, the cryo is not worth the cost when you consider the various cons it has against it (relatively cheap to make, not an amazing difference between that and a cheaper non-cryo copper wire, the dock connector's pins, considering the 'higher-quality' jumbo is only a thicker wire this is made null by the limiting size of the pins, and so on and so forth..). BUT if you want a cable that is the "best" and looks nice and have extremely high quality gear then it might be worth the cost. I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about concerning whether the cable really is better than a cheaper one but I do know ALO's various prices set off my bullsh*t detector, as they should any sane-minded person ($100 for a freaking 7" cable? Come on...). So no, in my opinion as a small-pocketed, highly critical person, the Cryo is not worth the cost.

I started with cheap cables as well and ended with high end cables because in my system they simply sound best! period.

Not really my opinion, since i didn't make the sites i quoted, so there are more people thinking like me. Your post IS quite biased.

Really think warren is the ony guy that knows his stuff. prof. ohno is compared to him an idiot, with years of study and experimenting to perfect the ohno single crystal structure. measurements do prove it is simply better!

25 years of listening experience brought me to the cables i am using now.
If you read the thread carefully, there are more people that don't agree with warren and trust their ears, instead of instruments.

measuring cables don't give you the synergy needed for a rig to shine.

In the end, ears cast the final judgement, not measuring instruments, this is true for filters in speakers and alot more electronical devices.

We all agree three components set for the sound, we don't agree however how those three components alter the sound or IF they alter the sound.

I guess millions of people are just complete ignorant idiots because they report hearing differences in cables.

What's more idiot to me are people who never heard the cable(s) in question or high end cables in general but think they can judge them.
Also bear in mind that people who cannot afford expensive high end cables are also biased because they simply can't afford it and therefor state it's not worth the money. This IS also bias and perception.

Furthermore, i don't say that you HAVE to buy expensive cables. You can buy whatever you like. I simply say that i hear big differences in cables in my rig! And that's just what i report(and alot of others too). If it doesn't concur with your opinion, that's not my problem.

Having a different opinion is a nice thing in a democracy.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then say you think they sound better and leave it at that. It you don't know why, you don't know why. Don't try to spread information that your really don't understand or can reasonably back up. I know why I don't think I can hear a difference in cables. And it's not my hearing. I know the science behind it and can back it up with a strong working knowledge.

I have quite the opposite feeling about you. Some other people who posted in this thread don't concur with you and have my experiences!

You just simply dismiss every proof i (we) come up with as too small to be audible. Period. Speaking of biased.

No you can't you never heard that cable.

So, please don't even try to convince me with your so called knowledge.
You think you know it better then prof. ohno, wich studied and experimented for years to perfect the single crystal structure.

Bold statement that you think you know it better then he does!

And think it IS not any better.
Also Jazz and some others commenting about your strong working knowledge and all you did was some evasive manouvres.

 

[naamanf]

I have listened to some of the best systems int he world. Best cables. Don't make a difference.


Your right.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have listened to some of the best systems int he world. Best cables. Don't make a difference. Your right.

me too, sound systems going up to 125.000 dollars and switching cables made a huge difference, and the people around me could hear it too.

you're right.

By the way, the best system is very personal and at least very suggestive.

Some report sound engeneers/recording specialists develop their own cables(some even exotic expensive) because THEY think they make a difference.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have listened to some of the best systems int he world. Best cables. Don't make a difference. Your right.

me too, sound systems going up to 125.000 dollars and switching cables made a huge difference, and the people around me could hear it too. Even recabling an amp made huge differences.

you're right.

By the way, the best system is very personal and at least very suggestive.

Some report sound engeneers/recording specialists develop their own cables(some even exotic expensive) because THEY think they make a difference.

Perception kicks in:

i think i there can't be a difference between cables, then i won't hear a difference between cables. The psychological law you're talking about also goes for you!


In the end, i think it's better to agree to disagree.

That's why there are soooo many cables on the market for every wallet and taste.

I take it that you use a 10 dollar cable in your rig. Every cable that is more expensive isn't worth the money and don't make a difference, if you do have a more expensive cable then 10 dollars in your rig then you completely fell through!

 

[koob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perception kicks in: i think i don't hear a difference, then i won't hear a difference. The psychological law you're talking about also goes for you!

If the objectivist position has measurements and empirical studies to back up their statements and the subjectivist position has a handful of opinions, it must logically follow that psychological factors are affecting the objectivist side most acutely. The logic is strong with you, tourmaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's why there are soooo many cables on the market for every wallet and taste.

This is mainly so people can self-select how much they want to spend on cables, thus maximizing the manufacturers' revenue. This is basic econmic theory. If you offer one cable at say $1000, then people either buy it or don't buy it. If you offer 2 cables, one at $1000 and one at $500, then people who must have "the best", regardless of whether they can differentiate, will buy the $1000 cable. People who don't want to spend $1000 can still bring you some revenue at the $500 price-point. The $1000 price point also serves to provide framing for the lower pricepoints. If you only offer one cable at $500, it may seem expensive to some people. However, as soon as you offer a second cable at $1000, you provide a frame of reference for the first cable. If $500 gets you something that's almost as good as $1000, it suddenly looks like good value.

For instance: Nordost realizes that not everyone will pay $2500 for a standard IEC power cable (for good reason

), so they have ones at various price points below that. Gullible audiogearphiles can then walk into a store and ask themselves "How much do I want to pay today to walk out with the warm & fuzzy feeling that I've upgraded my gear in some way?" and Nordost generates revenue at the optimal level for each individual customer. The array of choices also serves to distract customers from other pesky questions like "Will I need to recable my entire house and neighbourhood with Valhalla as well?"

 

[TreAdidas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by koob /img/forum/go_quote.gif The array of choices also serves to distract customers from other pesky questions like "Will I need to recable my entire house and neighbourhood with Valhalla as well?"

haha yeah. I was always

when I was hearing people wax about power cables. Isn't that just a very small link in a gigantic line of many? Recabling your neighborhood with Valhalla, now that's great! The only reason I would buy into power cables is if I had some sort of super trick line conditioner that I could reasonably explain and hear the benefits. Otherwise that just does not make sense to me.

Then again I am the kid that bought into the Transparent thing... but that infatuation is quickly turning into that a past love.

 

[koob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreAdidas /img/forum/go_quote.gif haha yeah. I was always when I was hearing people wax about power cables. Isn't that just a very small link in a gigantic line of many? Recabling your neighborhood with Valhalla, now that's great! The only reason I would buy into power cables is if I had some sort of super trick line conditioner that I could reasonably explain and hear the benefits. Otherwise that just does not make sense to me. Then again I am the kid that bought into the Transparent thing... but that infatuation is quickly turning into that a past love.

Bah, skeptics! Clearly the 3 feet between where your house wiring leaves off and where the components' internal wirings take over is the crucial 3 feet. Just as with interconnects, the 3 feet between components is the crucial 3 feet and the signal path inside the components is irrelevant.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by koob /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the objectivist position has measurements and empirical studies to back up their statements and the subjectivist position has a handful of opinions, it must logically follow that psychological factors are affecting the objectivist side most acutely. The logic is strong with you, tourmaline. This is mainly so people can self-select how much they want to spend on cables, thus maximizing the manufacturers' revenue. This is basic econmic theory. If you offer one cable at say $1000, then people either buy it or don't buy it. If you offer 2 cables, one at $1000 and one at $500, then people who must have "the best", regardless of whether they can differentiate, will buy the $1000 cable. People who don't want to spend $1000 can still bring you some revenue at the $500 price-point. The $1000 price point also serves to provide framing for the lower pricepoints. If you only offer one cable at $500, it may seem expensive to some people. However, as soon as you offer a second cable at $1000, you provide a frame of reference for the first cable. If $500 gets you something that's almost as good as $1000, it suddenly looks like good value. For instance: Nordost realizes that not everyone will pay $2500 for a standard IEC power cable (for good reason ), so they have ones at various price points below that. Gullible audiogearphiles can then walk into a store and ask themselves "How much do I want to pay today to walk out with the warm & fuzzy feeling that I've upgraded my gear in some way?" and Nordost generates revenue at the optimal level for each individual customer. The array of choices also serves to distract customers from other pesky questions like "Will I need to recable my entire house and neighbourhood with Valhalla as well?"

What i CAN confirm is that the differences between the Nordost line are smaller then between Nordost and some other cable brands! So, depending on gear better source, amp speakers, sometimes you can get the same results by using a cheaper cable. As a matter afact i recall a review that clearly stated the the valhalla sounded much worse then the next in line valkyrja, wich cost less then half the valhalla(1800 dollars versus 4000 dollars)

So, maybe there is some truth in the fact that cables synergize more with certain equipment then others! As the quote states in a post i posted in this thread.

Patrick is allready near bankruptcy! Rcabling powerstation or complete block with valhalla could improve sound but i certainly hdon't have the funds to trst this theory in practice. Nordost cables i have at the moment allready cost me an arm and a legg. Luckely i go them second hand, so i have more value for money, if you can speak of that term concerning cables.

P.s.

it's not a feeling:

i clearly heard a huge difference in comparisson to my old IC, otherwise i wouldn't have switched, that simple. maybe it's just good old synergy, nothing fancy in cable thechnology.