[philodox]

Well said dura/kwkarth, that is the problem I see with relying solely on measurements.

 

[Sir Nobax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Part of the problem is, the difference between f.i. ugly and beautiful sometimes can't be put into numbers, and if you can, that number can be surprisingly small, take red wine f.i. What substances are you gonna measure, and how are you going to interpretet what you measure? Nobody knows.

It isn't to check 'HOW IS IT DIFFERENT', but 'IS IT DIFFERENT'.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Nobax /img/forum/go_quote.gif It isn't to check 'HOW IS IT DIFFERENT', but 'IS IT DIFFERENT'.

YES, i submitted figures of measurements of cables and the differences of the most significant parts to be related to different sound in cables are 600 and 800 percent. Relative high figures between cables. All sceptics say it isn't audible. Right, differences between sources etc. are in the same catagory yet sceptics do claim to hear differences in sources. Quite a bit contradictive.

All i say is: if you don't hear differences then don't bother and be happy with what you got. If you do hear differences, there is still alot to be explored.

 

[dvw]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, today, with existing methods, no one has been able to demonstrate and measure the differences that people hear. This can mean a couple of different things. Either we have not yet learned how to measure all that we hear, or all people who hear differences are delusional. Having done a lot of single blind testing myself, I personally feel we see a lot of both cases demonstrated.

Actually, I don't understand why people ignored or disregarded the function of the brain in this type of discussion. This should not be viewed not as an insult but just another theory on the difference.

For example, the optical theory tell us that we should be seeing things upside down but we're seeing things right side up. This is because the brain is doing the correction for us. When you are watching a movie, you actually viewing a series of pictures and nothing is really moving.

So why can't the brain tell us to hear different things because the perception we had that we should be hearing different things.

Sting's recording in "leaving las vegas" is recorded in a log cabin with the fire place going. I was trying to listen for this detail the other day. Took me a while but I heard it but I didn't hear the music. The point is maybe we should pay a little more attention to the music itself than trying to defend that extra warmth or grain that we heard.

I don't want to stir up anything. But I have yet to see a power cable solve any ground loop problem. But if you do a search, you'll see people recommending power cable to solve the "humming noise" problem. I think people should be more informed but information should be accurate and factual and emotional outburst isn't necessary.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Quote:

I hope that my ability to share what I've learned in the past 30 years helps someone make smart choices on their own. The audiophile press, web and sales community is doing a criminally bad job of guiding people. All they seem to care about is generating revenue selling snake oil. Someone has to stick up for the individual hifi nut and arm him with the info he needs to put together a great rig without going into hock.

Yes! Exactly. And if there weren't some skeptics in this community I for one would want no part of it. I mean, the same sites/magazines that I look to for great reviews of amps and speakers publish serious analyses of CD degaussers and $10,000 power cords! This is one of the most BS-ridden, conniving industries in existence. Thank goodness there are other places to find information and listening impressions!

(And yes, I absolutely think vinyl quality, stylus, cartridge, headshell cable, turntable quality and drive, phono headamp, CD transport & DAC, preamp, power amp, tubes vs solid-state, speakers, speaker stands & isolation, room treatment -- all these things make a difference: some small, some huge but all audible, measurable, repeatable, explainable, and testable.)

But fancy interconnects and power cords belong right up there with CD degaussers, green markers, $400 wooden knobs, rainbow stickers, $5 clocks with secret stickers and magic rocks, in terms of things that may make a difference in the listener's mental state, but have no effect on the soundwaves reaching his eardrum.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, I don't understand why people ignored or disregarded the function of the brain in this type of discussion. This should not be viewed not as an insult but just another theory on the difference. For example, the optical theory tell us that we should be seeing things upside down but we're seeing things right side up. This is because the brain is doing the correction for us. When you are watching a movie, you actually viewing a series of pictures and nothing is really moving. So why can't the brain tell us to hear different things because the perception we had that we should be hearing different things. Sting's recording in "leaving las vegas" is recorded in a log cabin with the fire place going. I was trying to listen for this detail the other day. Took me a while but I heard it but I didn't hear the music. The point is maybe we should pay a little more attention to the music itself than trying to defend that extra warmth or grain that we heard. I don't want to stir up anything. But I have yet to see a power cable solve any ground loop problem. But if you do a search, you'll see people recommending power cable to solve the "humming noise" problem. I think people should be more informed but information should be accurate and factual and emotional outburst isn't necessary.

Well said, I'm 100% with you on this one!

 

[greggf]

I wonder if sellers of cable are liable to future lawsuits?

I also wonder if reviewers of cables or of audio equipment in general could be held legally accountable for their statements?

There must be an attorney or three hereabouts. Perhaps they could address this question, at least in the abstract.

Can I order an aftermarket Sennheiser cable, hear no difference, hire an attorney, force the seller to try to prove the efficacy of their products, and win damages if they can't scientifically back up their claims?

Interesting. Might be worth pursuing. I wonder if any sellers of aftermarket cables might be willing to comment? Have you taken any legal steps to protect yourself and your business?

In a world where people sue over hot spilled coffee, shouldn't you? Wouldn't it be prudent?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if sellers of cable are liable to future lawsuits? I also wonder if reviewers of cables or of audio equipment in general could be held legally accountable for their statements? There must be an attorney or three hereabouts. Perhaps they could address this question, at least in the abstract. Can I order an aftermarket Sennheiser cable, hear no difference, hire an attorney, force the seller to try to prove the efficacy of their products, and win damages if they can't scientifically back up their claims? Interesting. Might be worth pursuing. I wonder if any sellers of aftermarket cables might be willing to comment? Have you taken any legal steps to protect yourself and your business? In a world where people sue over hot spilled coffee, shouldn't you? Wouldn't it be prudent?

If they didn't deliver, somebody would allready have sued them. Especially for cables of 18.000 dollars one might suspect it should perform accordingly, no bad word of those users though. So, clearly alot of people who actually use higher end cables in their system don't complain but tell other people they are better in their systems.


I only hear people complain who don't actually own high end cables or never heard those cables!

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes! Exactly. And if there weren't some skeptics in this community I for one would want no part of it. I mean, the same sites/magazines that I look to for great reviews of amps and speakers publish serious analyses of CD degaussers and $10,000 power cords! This is one of the most BS-ridden, conniving industries in existence. Thank goodness there are other places to find information and listening impressions!

I agree 100%
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif (And yes, I absolutely think vinyl quality, stylus, cartridge, headshell cable, turntable quality and drive, phono headamp, CD transport & DAC, preamp, power amp, tubes vs solid-state, speakers, speaker stands & isolation, room treatment -- all these things make a difference: some small, some huge but all audible, measurable, repeatable, explainable, and testable.)

I'm still with you here, except for the fact that many differences that people hear are still not measurable by known methods.
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarinthegourd /img/forum/go_quote.gif But fancy interconnects and power cords belong right up there with CD degaussers, green markers, $400 wooden knobs, rainbow stickers, $5 clocks with secret stickers and magic rocks, in terms of things that may make a difference in the listener's mental state, but have no effect on the soundwaves reaching his eardrum.

So, you allowed, above, that many formerly considered intangible things do make a difference. I submit to you, that like some other component to component differences, we haven't learned to measure all of these differences or to correlate measurable parameters to things we hear.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw cables into the green marker heap just yet.

The ear / brain system is one of the most sophisticated audio signal processing systems known to man and it is not yet fully understood.

Not too many years ago stereo magazines confidently published that no one could distinguish +- 0.5db differences in FR. Today we know that some people can easily distinguish that sort of difference.

We know today that some are equally sensitive to phase alignment across the spectrum, some even to absolute phase. Not too many years ago, it was generally believed that phase alignment octave to octave within the spectrum was not that important. We have much to learn yet!

 

[peelax]

Quote:

except for the fact that many differences that people hear are still not measurable by known methods.

I'm not sure anyone has ever proven that the human ear is more sensitive to anything than a good oscilloscope? I wouldn't even say that the ear is better than the best mic? Electrons are just electrons - they are dealt with in the speaker in an understandable way, and compression waves are just compression waves. Surely if there was some gap in our understanding someone would be trying to set up some nobel prize winning experiment using these types of technologies?

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if sellers of cable are liable to future lawsuits? I also wonder if reviewers of cables or of audio equipment in general could be held legally accountable for their statements? There must be an attorney or three hereabouts. Perhaps they could address this question, at least in the abstract. Can I order an aftermarket Sennheiser cable, hear no difference, hire an attorney, force the seller to try to prove the efficacy of their products, and win damages if they can't scientifically back up their claims? Interesting. Might be worth pursuing. I wonder if any sellers of aftermarket cables might be willing to comment? Have you taken any legal steps to protect yourself and your business? In a world where people sue over hot spilled coffee, shouldn't you? Wouldn't it be prudent?

Good question! I think that once we do learn how to better qualify and measure what people hear, the potential for lawsuits may increase, because then things will move more out of the realm of subjectivity into the realm of objectivity, and claims will be able to be substantiated or not. There are sincere and passionate cable makers out there and there are also a lot of snake oil sellers. The latter know who they are and will be out of business one day.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure anyone has ever proven that the human ear is more sensitive to anything than a good oscilloscope? I wouldn't even say that the ear is better than the best mic? Electrons are just electrons - they are dealt with in the speaker in an understandable way, and compression waves are just compression waves. Surely if there was some gap in our understanding someone would be trying to set up some nobel prize winning experiment using these types of technologies?

Woah there pardoner. Let's not over simplify this thing. We're not talking about simple frequency domain or amplitude measurements here. There are extremely complex interrelationships between all the sounds of the spectrum and their octave to octave phase alignment, time and frequency domain. Heck, we're net even talking electrons here at all. We''re talking about the compression and rarefaction of air molecules, we're talking about HRTF for every individual,and all the subtle L/R frequency, amplitude, and phase relationships precessed by your brain to develop the illusion/model of 3D space in your head. There is much yet that science doesn't fully understand, and the honest ones will freely admit it.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure anyone has ever proven that the human ear is more sensitive to anything than a good oscilloscope?

Oh, and talking about absolute sensitivity...
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...d/earsens.html
Can you show me an electronic system that even possesses this dynamic range? ...Not to mention the sophisticated 2 channel cross coupled signal processing system to go with it?

Here's another blurb re sensitivity of the human ear:
Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/EARS.htm Sound pressure level (SPL) is given in dB SPL. This is a scale that is defined such that the threshold of hearing is close to 0 dB. The threshold of pain is about 135 dB. This is a logarithmic scale where power doubles for each 3 dB increase; the 135 dB difference between the thresholds of hearing and pain means the power doubles about 45 times - an increase of 32 trillion (32x1012) in the power level. This is an incredible dynamic range, and totally blows away anything human engineers are capable of creating. (Actually in a Dec 99 Newsgroup post Dick Pierce states that B&K 4138 microphones have a dynamic range of 140 dB, so I was underrating human engineers). At the low end of the range the ears lose function due to background noise. At 0 dB SPL noise created by blood flow in the ear is one source. It is shown elsewhere that the noise of molecules colliding with the eardrum is not far below this level. At the threshold sound level of 0 dB SPL Everest states that the eardrum moves a distance smaller than the diameter of a hydrogen molecule! At first I was incredulous when I read this, but it is consistent with the change in diameter of the balloon example used in the previous section. For a 0 dB SPL the change in balloon diameter is 6x10-10 inches, which is about 1/10 of the diameter of a hydrogen atom. The sensitivity of the ear is truly mind-boggling.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Either we have not yet learned how to measure all that we hear, or all people who hear differences are delusional.

The areas of auditory perception that are still to be discovered are the ones that involve the mind more than the ears. We're able to measure what we can and can't hear extremely accurately. The thing we can't do is fully understand how that information is processed by the brain. Referring to that process as "delusion" adds a value judgement that doesn't apply at all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with thinking you hear something you don't. All of us do that every single day. That's how our brains fill in the gaps between information so we can understand what we hear better.

The fact remains that the difference between cables, if it exists at all, is so minute and so vague that people who claim to hear it can't under controlled testing, and they can't even agree on what sort of difference they hear. That indicates to me that it extends beyond what we can actually hear and into the area we think we can hear.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif in the 70-s they measured cheap Japanese transistoramplifiers had far less distortion then tube-amps, so they were better. Audiophiles claiming tubeamps sounded better were ridiculed snip a decade later Cd cames, and CD measured far better then vinyl. People who preferred vinyl were resolutedly pointed out they were completely wrong, same reasons. We all ended up with systems nobody cared to listen to, but at least they measured great.

You may not realize it, but transistorized amplifiers *were* much better than the bulky, hissy, undependable, heat generating tube amps they replaced. And CDs do have the ability to sound better than LPs. You're applying the wrong cause to the effect. They don't sound good because they measure poorly.

See ya
Steve