[raymondlin]

pp312 - I find your findings a bit weird to say the least. The marantz PM4000 is a budget amp, it's the entry level amp in the whole Marantz catalogue. the X-Can actually cost more then the PM4000, good as thought the PM4000 is, I can't agree it's better then the X-can. (I am refering to the V2 here and I have the HD580 + 600 too).

Why do I think this? if you look at my profile, I have both the X-canv2/X-psu and a Marantz PM-6010KI sig amp (it's about 5 models up from the PM4000, I rate it above the PM7200 and 8200 even thought they cost more because of the Ki signature)

Compare the Marantz PM6010Ki against my X-canv2, the difference isn't noticable at first. And it's not as convient as the marantz has a remote, but the x-can as that little more musical edge to it. But you might say at what cost! The X-canv2 + X-PSU + interconnectors actually cost me more then I paid for my Marantz PM6010KI but it's the price we pay for the thing we love. Life is short, got to try it all.

 

[ai0tron]

I stick my HD600's in everything with a hole, and I have found the best hole to stick them in si the MElos. Although their are some good holes out there, the melos is just vastly better.

 

[pp312]

Too many points to answer, but none convince me. I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. I won't be buying a dedicated amp. If a dedicated tube amp can't do it for me, an amp that, even if it isn't universally admired, has had rave reviews around the world, then it probably can't be done. And forgive me if I seem sceptical of the argument that it's too controversial or unforgiving or just the wrong choice. First of all, in OZ it's just about the only dedicated amp readily available (and even the word "readily" is arguable). It is indeed the yardstick by which OZ enthusiasts have to work; most everything else is heresay. And it should work with a wide range of equipment, shouldn't it, given that it costs the same here as the Marantz 4000? Or am I expecting too much? (Remember that where a thing is not readily available it invariably has to be ordered in, which means the retailer will not accept it back). I sometimes wonder if US residents realize how blessed they are in their huge choice of goodies. (But we do have the Philips 890 at least).

"Compare the Marantz PM6010Ki against my X-canv2, the difference isn't noticable at first. And it's not as convient as the marantz has a remote, but the x-can as that little more musical edge to it. But you might say at what cost! The X-canv2 + X-PSU + interconnectors actually cost me more then I paid for my Marantz PM6010KI but it's the price we pay for the thing we love. Life is short, got to try it all."

Here's an interesting statement, which to some degree bears out my argument. It's the kind of information I'd like to see conveyed to newbies more often, and clearly if it were, some would decide that the minor improvement described over a mainstream amp, particularly given the inconvenience, is not worth it.

"Again, you're missing the point. It's not that the HD600 can't sound "good" without a dedicated headphone amp. The point is that other headphones that cost less money can and do sound better than the HD600 without a dedicated headphone amp. If you are really as concerned with "value" as you say you are, then you also shouldn't be recommending the HD600 without an amp, because people could spend less money and get better sound. That's the point I keep trying to make here."

Sorry, but this I must take umbrage with. If you're saying that I could take, say, the next model down in the Senn range, the 565, and not hear much difference against the 580 out of the Marantz, you're wrong because I've tried it. And I would dispute that I could choose any lesser headphone in another range and not discern much difference, or be just as happy, due to the lack of resolving power of the Marantz. This really does denigrate and under-estimate the results I'm currently getting; it suggests indeed a woolly, flat, undifferentiated sound that would be just as well served by any half decent can, but is wasted on the 580. If I will concede, due to lack of experience to the contrary, that the BEST dedicated amps will give a worthwhile improvement over my Marantz, then at least concede back that the Marantz is good enough to diferentiate between a 580 and something less---even a little less.

P.S. Please bear in mind when recommending overseas amps the poor US/OZ dollar balance. With postage an amp costing say $400 US will cost well over $1000 AUD.

 

[Snufkin]

Ok, to start with - you can get a Creek OBH-11SE for around $600AU in Australia, locally supplied.
That's the rough going price, chances are you might be able to talk somene down on price a little if you can find somewhere that has them (I know of at least 2 places here in Perth that can get them)

Next thing is Mac has an extremely valid point.

Here's an example for you - you go out and get someone to build you a good amp kit, budget for say around.. $300AU, then you go and spend $300AU on a pair of headphones and plug it into whatever source you might be using.

Chances are it'll sound better than a pair of HD600s which cost around $600AU.


Or for that matter - you take a pair of Beyer 250-250s which cost around $300AU and plug them into a decent source, they will probably also sound as good as the HD600s.
There's a bunch of other alternatives as well, heck even the $120AU Philips HP890s have been reported to sound almost as good as the HD600s.... think about it, $120AU.. that's a lot less than $600AU.

Ok, now let's say you get yourself one of the recommended amps that compliment the HD600s and some of the much recommended interconnects/replacement cables, now we're starting to compare things on a different level... although some might not be able to tell the difference, that's where things start to open up - if you can't hear the difference, good for you, but chances are if you can't hear the difference between a pair of HD600s driven under optimum conditions and being driven under minimum recommended/reasonably good conditions, chances are you can't hear the difference between a pair of HD600s and a pair of 580s, Beyer 931s (which incidentally cost a lot less than the HD600s here in Oz) or even HP890s.


What newbies need to be made aware of is that their headphones will only sound as good as the chain leading to the headphones, and even then they'll only sound as good as the music, and what the listener perceives
If you've got a case of glue-ear, the Orpheus probably won't sound much different to a pair of sony V700DJs.

I'm willing to bet that there's a lot of people out there who own HD600s, or other high end headphones, that run them off consumer or mid-low level equipment thinking they're getting their moneys worth out of these "best" headphones just because someone told them that they were "the best".

I know for a fact that there are people out there wanting to build $5 radio shack amps to power their high-end headphones from a relatively unamped source thinking that it's the headphones that make the difference and nothing else.

I'm happy with my X-Cans, it only cost me $100US, it's many times better than the vanilla headphones jack out of multiple NAD and Marantz amps that I tried, and that goes for powering every single headphone in my collection.

The only amp that I listened to that I perceived as significantly "better" was in the $4000 range, which is a lot more than $600 for a headphone amp, and there were a lot of amps that made things sound much, much worse.

Time is a factor for some people, I just happened to find somewhere that was willing to let me wander around plugging different headphones into different setups for a while... I didn't buy anything, but I was wiser from the experience - yet it's not something I have a lot of time to do. Buying a headphone amp was a lot simpler than testing and testing until I found "the perfect" amp for a) my headphones (all of them), b) my tastes in music (all of them) and c) my budget.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by pp312 Quote: "Again, you're missing the point. It's not that the HD600 can't sound "good" without a dedicated headphone amp. The point is that other headphones that cost less money can and do sound better than the HD600 without a dedicated headphone amp. If you are really as concerned with "value" as you say you are, then you also shouldn't be recommending the HD600 without an amp, because people could spend less money and get better sound. That's the point I keep trying to make here." Sorry, but this I must take umbrage with. If you're saying that I could take, say, the next model down in the Senn range, the 565, and not hear much difference against the 580 out of the Marantz, you're wrong because I've tried it.

I didn't say that you could take "the next model down in the Senn range." I said that if you don't (and won't) have a good headphone amp, there are other, less expensive, headphones that would sound as good (and possibly better) than the 600/580, and cost less. Therefore being at least a better value, and possibly even a better headphone. For example, the Beyer DT250 (although I don't know if they're available in AU). And several fellow Aussies have said that the Phillips 890 sounds better unamped than the HD580/600.


Quote:

P.S. Please bear in mind when recommending overseas amps the poor US/OZ dollar balance. With postage an amp costing say $400 US will cost well over $1000 AUD.

That stinks

P.S. Excellent post Snufkin

 

[raymondlin]

I can partialy understand your fustration of not being able to buy equipment that is not refundable if you don't like it. We (england) don't have the same range as people over the states side, there's about 6 that comes to mind, Surgen, Creek, Rega, Musical Fidelity, Earmax & Naim. And if the marantz can drive them without any problems then that's all it matters.

I can vouch that the Marantz although not as good as the X-canv2, it can drive the HD600 without problems. and with the add bonus of the remote, and sometimes I use the Marantz as I can't wait for the tubes to warm to their best (and use the remote) as my PM6010Ki is powered on more often.

If you have the chance, try the Naim Headline with a PSU (comes separates but you'll need it for the Headline to work at all). I just tried it yesterday and it's really quite good, it was with a pair of Beyer. Naim stuff should be readily availabe in Oz so give it a go if you have the chance.

 

[pp312]

Thanks to all who've taken the trouble to write long replies to my objections. Your opinions--and passion!--have made interesting reading, even if I'm still not converted to the doubtful joys of dedicated amps. You'll be pleased to know that I won't be posting on this subject henceforth, as it's all been said several times. I may however be chiming in with a totally contrary viewpoint on another topic entirely, so watch your backs!

 

[Nacher]

I was once totally brainwashed with this "HD-600 will rock your world with dedicated amp" stuff, and went out to buy a X-Can v2 without a chance of refund. Do I need to say how dissapointed I was? I had serious problems differing X-Cans from my Marantz PM-84 mk2 integrated amp headphone jack. I've had X-Cans for 6 months now, and I still can't differ it from my Marantz in a blind test. The thing just got better, as I tried HD-600 with my sony discman. Even though I could differ the sound this time, it needed some careful listening. Bass was a bit lighter and sound was a bit less airy, but the difference was far from huge. I wouldn't say that I can differ my discman and X-Cans with 100% accuracy in a blind test. So much for HD-600 sounding horrible without a dedicated amp.

I let a few of my friends test X-Can vs Marantz too, and they all claimed that the sound was almost identical. There were not your random sony earbud guys, but guys intrested in audio equipment. They aren't any golden ear audiophiles, but still have speakers in 1000$ pricerange, and systems totaling in about 2000$.

As the X-Can doubled the price of my headphone system, it was far from worth it. It has more power in it though, which can be heard at very dynamic songs and at high volumes, but I really rarely listen that loud. I found grado sr-125 and various beyers inferior to my HD-600, no matter what the source was.

 

[pub]

I ever used my HD600 directly with SB AUDIGY ,and now sometimes Extigy.

sounds not bad...
after all, not great without a amp.
my amp. is G&W T2A
my future amp. is YELI TA26
and my dream is YELI 8P~~~~~

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by pp312 This is our point of dispute in a nutshell. I believe they do sound quite near as good as they can sound. But beyond who's right, there's a question of value for money. If we assume you're right and better sound CAN be obtained from certain dedicated HP amps (obviously not the X-Can!), is the difference worth it for the average buyer? Some of these dedicated amps are horrendously expense, and most just aren't available outside the US. For many it simply isn't economically viable to shell out for a receiver/integrated AND a dedicated amp when the former may do both jobs perfectly well--i.e., to the satisfaction of 95% of buyers. This is my objection to much of the advice given on this site, that you do not say, "You can get better sound with a dedicated amp, though it may not always be worth the extra". More often you say something like my quote above about not considering quality cans without budgeting for a dedicated amp. This I dispute and will continue to dispute. My 580 gives excellent result from the Marantz, sufficient to satisfy most audiophiles. If better sound can be obtained for more (usually much more) money, so be it, but I'm satisfied with what I have and do not believe for one moment that I am squandering more than the last 2 to 3 percent of the potential of the 580, most especially after my X-Can experience. So why not investigate the output of a few quality amps (and there are far better amps than the 4000!) and permit your findings to inform all future replies to newbies? Otherwise this site and its regular contributors are letting those newbies down.

am i the only one around here who when hears the word "audiophile", the idea of money is completely thrown out the window? i guess i always figured that was a given..

i completely agree with macdef on this one. however, the only way i can walk away happily from this little thread battle is thinking to myself: there's no substitution for bad taste.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by grinch i completely agree with macdef on this one. however, the only way i can walk away happily from this little thread battle is thinking to myself: there's no substitution for bad taste.

I feel like this is more a case of ignorance than bad taste. Bad taste would be hearing the HD600 out of various sources including good amps and then declaring a preference for a component headphone jack. Ignorance is more like when the only amp you've heard is the X-Cans and thus presume that all amps suck equally and that all the rest of us are just brainwashed into thinking we hear any difference at all. Actually, I guess that's delusion, but it begins in ignorance.

Ignorance can be cured. Seek experience.

 

[JML]

Your question can't be answered without more information, and it's information you'll have to find on your own by contacting manufacturers and finding out what they've done. The circuitry behind the headphone jack of receivers, CD players, preamps, tape decks, MD players, and the like can vary tremendously.

Some are simple resistors to cut down what is sent to loudspeakers via the amplifier stage. Some are based on line-level attenuation. The best have quality op-amps or discrete amplifier stages. The available voltage and nominal output impedance vary from unit to unit.

Generally, they're junk. Sometimes they can sound quite good. But few will approach the quality of a separate dedicated headphone amp. Most mass-market manufacturers don't care because it is not a selling point of the product. A good headphone circuit will not sell enough units to make it worth their time to include one, unless they care to do it for non-economic reasons.

My Rotel preamp has a great headphone stage. But my new Corda HA-1 kicks butt and takes names.

 

[RemedyLane]

@Tom M:

I'm using my 600's with the headphone outlet of my NAD
integrated amplifier. I would say the sound is very, very nice, and
I don't plan of getting a separate amp nor a new cable for my
headphones. The sound is excellent as it is.

-Martin

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Ignorance is more like when the only amp you've heard is the X-Cans and thus presume that all amps suck equally and that all the rest of us are just brainwashed into thinking we hear any difference at all.

Careful here. Ignorance is also reading posts about how the X-Cans suck and believing them without hearing. They are a serious amp. but they're not for someone with a mid-fi system who expects it to cure faults up the line. They're a high end headphone amp, that need an upgraded power supply and high-end cabling to fully function. They are also extremely revealing of any weakness in the source or cabling. Problems in QC could be real, but my unit has never offered a hint of a problem. It's also a damn good little amp that's much better off in a high-end system than some of the digital and mid-fi systems where people "can't hear a difference". GIGO. Unforgiving little amp, which may be why many dislike it. Kill the messenger...

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch Careful here. Ignorance is also reading posts about how the X-Cans suck and believing them without hearing. They are a serious amp. but they're not for someone with a mid-fi system who expects it to cure faults up the line. They're a high end headphone amp, that need an upgraded power supply and high-end cabling to fully function. They are also extremely revealing of any weakness in the source or cabling. Problems in QC could be real, but my unit has never offered a hint of a problem. It's also a damn good little amp that's much better off in a high-end system than some of the digital and mid-fi systems where people "can't hear a difference". GIGO. Unforgiving little amp, which may be why many dislike it. Kill the messenger...

I didn't mean to imply that I believed or disbelieved anything specifically about the X-Cans amp itself. I know that it has gotten mixed reviews. I withhold my own judgment until I've auditioned it personally.

However, I do think it ignorant to presume that auditioning a single amp, and especially one that has gotten such mixed reviews, should represent all headphone amps.

Though I admit, your take on the amp is one I hadn't read before.