[gloco]

For the hell of it i tried the 580's with my MD player: seesh, ouch, ahhh, jeeez...painful....screechy, no bass, hollow. Then i plugged my 7506's back in and : ahhh, much better

However i was suprised the 580's didn't sound bland like they did when i tested them in a store. Just very tiny and bright and the volume was only adequate at full. Definitely not a good idea to plug these into a portable device without an amp to go with it.

 

[dave-the-rave]

I enjoyed my 580's for years directly from my Nakamichi CD Player 3 and/or Proton 950 receiver, as they were a tremendous improvement over my old Senn 414's. However, adding a Creek OH-11 was a revelation: More bass, greater separation of instruments and more black background. And the Creek, I think, is really just an "entry-level" solid-state headphone amp, when the Senn's, from what I read, really sing with tubes... so they can sound even better. I'd say go with 580's or 600's, enjoy them now, and add an amp when you can.

 

[gloco]

I decided to try my 580's with my cmoy amp and really liked what i heard compared to my altoids. Everything sounds cleaner and bass was a bit tighter. I did not notice any "haze" around the instruments or vocals (i tested various rock cds). The crossfeed also helped quite a bit.

 

[Jacobh]

The difference between my HD580s out of my reciever and dedicated amp are fairly subtle.

Directly out of the portable cd-player, the amp makes a vey big difference.

 

[pp312]

"why are people telling me what the 600's sound like on a portable?"

A jolly good question; some of the posters here seem unable to latch onto the idea of using top quality headphones out of regular amps/receivers and continue to ramble on about the lousy sound from cd portables etc. As I've noted here before more than once, and got slammed for it every time (but do I care?), I use my 580's out of a Marantz 4000 integrated and get great results, better in fact than I was able to get out of an M.F. X-Can v.2. I strongly suggest you NOT swallow the propaganda liberally dispensed here about top cans ALWAYS needing a dedicated headphone amp and try a 580/600 with a good quality integrated from Marantz or Nad or any other quality amp whose headphone feed is taken directly from the speaker outlet via stepdown resistors--that is, doesn't use a separate internal headphone amp. I think you'll be surprised, as would some of the regulars here if they could only break out of their well-worn furrows.

 

[MacDEF]

You're way off base here pp312. No one is saying that the HD600 can't sound "good" without an amp. The issue is whether or not they are even close to reaching their potential, and whether or not they are giving you sound better than other headphones, unamped.

The HD600/580 can NOT reach their potential without a dedicated headphone amp -- unless you've found a CD player or receiver with the equivalent of a Max in the headphone circuitry

The Senns will sound decent (and some who haven't heard them on a good amp might say they sound "good") out of SOME receivers that have decent headphone circuitry.

Few portables will do them justice -- you'll get better sound out of other, cheaper heapdhones that are designed to be driven from a wimpy source.

 

[pp312]

I notice you haven't addressed my remark about prefering the Marantz 4000 over an M.F. X-Can v.2, which after all is the crux of this debate. If I prefer the Marantz after careful comparison, and it was carefully, and on critical material, is it not possible others would too? Is it not possible that--heaven forbid!--it might not actually be superior to the X-can, however much that flies in the face of received wisdom? Let's try thinking a little laterally here.
And forget about portables. No ones suggesting driving a 580 with a portable.

 

[El Vaquero]

I've been using my HD580'S ampless powered off my line outs on my pre-amp, with mixed sound results. (Just blew up headphone amp)!

 

[MacDEF]

First, I would try dropping the condescending tone, pp312. What I wrote does not display any lack of "lateral thinking."

Second, before you start mocking people, I would try actually reading what they wrote.

I wrote:
Quote:

The HD600/580 can NOT reach their potential without a dedicated headphone amp.

and

Quote:

The Senns will sound decent (and some who haven't heard them on a good amp might say they sound "good") out of SOME receivers that have decent headphone circuitry.

Where in there did I say that your Marantz couldn't sound better than an X-CAN? Nowhere.

The X-CAN and X-CANv2 are very love/hate -- some people feel they make a huge difference, some people feel they aren't very good. Although it should be said that most people who feel they make a big difference have much better sources than you do, so perhaps they are really source-depending. Whatever the case may be, I have heard quite a few people say they didn't like the X-CAN series, and preferred the output from the headphone jack of their receiver (mostly Marantz and NAD models).

But that does not in any way contradict what I wrote. Your Marantz receiver isn't driving the HD600 to their potential, and with your source and your receiver's headphone jack, they don't sound anywhere *near* as good as they can sound. In addition, there are quite a few other headphones that will sound better than the HD600 do out of your source and your headphone jack, for less money than the HD600. THAT was what I was saying. How you interpreted that to mean "there's no way you could prefer your Marantz headphone jack to an X-CAN" I have no idea.

 

[Audio-Me]

My Senns sound great out of one of my receivers, but sound like **** out of every other receiver/source I have/had. That one reciever is pretty damn good, not as sweet as the MG Head, but hey, it's a do-it-all product, not dedicated, you can't ask for more, especially 'cause it's a low cost product.

Quit your fighting fellas, holster them dukes.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom M I was not asking about what the sound was like on a portable with out an amp. I was talking about using the 600's on a full sized components Like: receivers,cdplayer,preamps.

Out of the headphone jack of my Sony S7000 CD/DVD, the HD600s clipped badly in the highs during complex movements.

Out of the headphone jack on my Pioneer Elite CLD-99 laserdisc player, it was about the same.

Out of the headphone jack on my Sony DA80ES, the clipping was less noticeable but still occurred at high volumes.

I've never heard the HD600s clip on a dedicated headphone jack. Likewise, they tend to sound better -- more open and full with increased responsiveness.

If you're opposed to spending the money on even one of JMT's amps, the portaCorda or a used Creek, the money spent on the HD600 could be better spent on another headphone with lower impedance.

PS The X-Cans amp has received mixed reviews at best. Try some other amps before condemning all amps to "not as good as my Marantz jack." I'm sure it's quite possible to even design amps that sound much worse than a headphone jack.

 

[pp312]

"First, I would try dropping the condescending tone, pp312."

Condescending? No. Slightly irritable and impatient, certainly. You see, I've been through all this before and got nowhere.

"Second, before you start mocking people, I would try actually reading what they wrote."

No mocking. Again, just a little irritation at constantly reading the same advice and everyone agreeing with everyone else without dissention on the following point:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The HD600/580 can NOT reach their potential without a dedicated headphone amp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, that's it alright. That's the point I stick on. Not as a matter of fact (it may well be strictly true), but in terms of the distorted message it conveys. Read on...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Senns will sound decent (and some who haven't heard them on a good amp might say they sound "good") out of SOME receivers that have decent headphone circuitry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Headphone circuitry is exactly what I warned against. If you read my post again, you'll see that I specifically recommended amps that take their headphone feed from the speaker outputs via power resistors. Separate headphone amplifying circuits usually sound like crap.

"Where in there did I say that your Marantz couldn't sound better than an X-CAN? Nowhere."

Again, the whole tone of this site is: "There's no point considering cans like the 580/600 unless you're prepared to invest in a quality headphone amp." Am I wrong? Have I been reading the wrong threads?

"The X-CAN and X-CANv2 are very love/hate -- some people feel they make a huge difference, some people feel they aren't very good. Although it should be said that most people who feel they make a big difference have much better sources than you do, so perhaps they are really source-depending."


The X-Can v.2 is a highly respected, well reviewed mid-range headphone amp that makes a good yardstick for this discussion. It is typically the kind of amp a newbie would end up with who is told "get a dedicated amp at all costs".


"Whatever the case may be, I have heard quite a few people say they didn't like the X-CAN series, and preferred the output from the headphone jack of their receiver (mostly Marantz and NAD models)."

And that last statement didn't ring any bells of curiousity? Did you at least investigate the headphone outputs of those quoted Marantz and Nad models? If so, I have not yet read the results on this site, a surprising omission given the relevance of such an investigation to posters here.


"But that does not in any way contradict what I wrote. Your Marantz receiver..."

Integrated amp, not receiver. The difference is not irrelevant, given the quality of most receivers.

"...isn't driving the HD600 to their potential, and with your source and your receiver's headphone jack, they don't sound anywhere *near* as good as they can sound."

This is our point of dispute in a nutshell. I believe they do sound quite near as good as they can sound. But beyond who's right, there's a question of value for money. If we assume you're right and better sound CAN be obtained from certain dedicated HP amps (obviously not the X-Can!), is the difference worth it for the average buyer? Some of these dedicated amps are horrendously expense, and most just aren't available outside the US. For many it simply isn't economically viable to shell out for a receiver/integrated AND a dedicated amp when the former may do both jobs perfectly well--i.e., to the satisfaction of 95% of buyers. This is my objection to much of the advice given on this site, that you do not say, "You can get better sound with a dedicated amp, though it may not always be worth the extra". More often you say something like my quote above about not considering quality cans without budgeting for a dedicated amp. This I dispute and will continue to dispute. My 580 gives excellent result from the Marantz, sufficient to satisfy most audiophiles. If better sound can be obtained for more (usually much more) money, so be it, but I'm satisfied with what I have and do not believe for one moment that I am squandering more than the last 2 to 3 percent of the potential of the 580, most especially after my X-Can experience. So why not investigate the output of a few quality amps (and there are far better amps than the 4000!) and permit your findings to inform all future replies to newbies? Otherwise this site and its regular contributors are letting those newbies down.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by pp312 Did you at least investigate the headphone outputs of those quoted Marantz and Nad models?

I've heard Marantz systems through headphones jacks and quite a few HeadFi members own Marantz and NAD equipment. The Corda HA-1, for example, sounds much better to me than the headphone jacks of the Marantz equipment I've heard.

If you look around HeadFi, you'll see that my short tenure has not shown me to be a complacent agreer. I'm known to dissent on some of the well accepted beliefs of the HeadFi world (ie, I don't think the Max is worth it, I don't think the HD580/600 is the best headphone/best at its price range, I didn't think the HD600+MG Head was the "best", I don't think Crossfeed robs you of all bass, I don't believe burn in makes a huge difference, etc.)

That said, I'd say we're a pretty argumentative bunch to begin with. If many of us have come to agree on a point, it's unlikely that it's due to peer pressure. It probably has more to do with us actually all going out and reaching that conclusion on our own independently.

And you should too. Maybe you should take advantage of Headroom's return policy and order one of their headphone amps. Why not try out their Little and see what it does for you. If it's not markedly better, send it back to Headroom and tell us all you told us so. If you've got a little more guts, order the Corda HA-1 from meier-audio.com instead and if you don't like it, sell it--no one's ever sold one in these parts so it'd likely be easy to sell without much of a loss, then you'd have solved your curiosity and could actually give some weight to your argument.

 

[ponzio]

Quote:

Originally posted by pp312 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HD600/580 can NOT reach their potential without a dedicated headphone amp. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is our point of dispute in a nutshell. I believe they do sound quite near as good as they can sound. But beyond who's right, there's a question of value for money. If we assume you're right and better sound CAN be obtained from certain dedicated HP amps (obviously not the X-Can!), is the difference worth it for the average buyer?

While I believe that the HD600's cannot reach their full potential without a dedicated headphone amp, I have encountered individuals who disagree. One, in particular, could not discern the difference between using the 600's with a Sony DVP-S9000ES / Corda HA-1 combo and the Meicer portable cd/mp3 player. I had no problem telling the difference, but this musician could not.

One possibility for your feeling that the 580's / Marantz combo sounds better than the XCan is that you don't like the tube sound.

I agree with Kelly, the best way to counter the "Head-Fi propaganda" you dislike would be to audition and review a number of headphone amplifiers. In this forum, as well as many others, documented experience garners some degree of respect.

My 2 cents - It is worth less than you paid for it.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by pp312 Quote: The HD600/580 can NOT reach their potential without a dedicated headphone amp. Yep, that's it alright. That's the point I stick on. Not as a matter of fact (it may well be strictly true), but in terms of the distorted message it conveys. Read on...

It's not "distorted" at all, unless you're defensive about it. Seriously, it's completely true: the HD600 can NOT reach their potential without dedicated headphone amplification. I've had three NAD amps, all with *great* headphone jacks -- none of them come close to driving the HD600s to their potential.

Did the HD600s sound good out of those NADs? Sure. But they didn't sound anywhere near as good as they do out of a good amp.



Quote:

Headphone circuitry is exactly what I warned against. If you read my post again, you'll see that I specifically recommended amps that take their headphone feed from the speaker outputs via power resistors.

The fact is that a LOT of receivers/amps that do have headphone jacks do just that, and sound horrible. Just because you've found a few that don't doesn't mean that this approach (bridging the speaker outputs with huge amounts of resistance) is better overall. A few companies have done things "right" -- but a few companies that use traditional headphone op-amps have also done things "right," as well.



Quote:

Again, the whole tone of this site is: "There's no point considering cans like the 580/600 unless you're prepared to invest in a quality headphone amp." Am I wrong? Have I been reading the wrong threads?

I would say two things:

1) There are a few amps/receivers that can drive the HD600 in a manner where they sound pretty good. Unfortunately, too few, and the odds of someone having one of them are quite small. So it's not exactly a bad guideline to say "you really need an amp." Plus, in most circumstances, the person's equipment is revealed in discussion, and if he/she has one of those rare components, someone will point it out.

2) I would contend (and have said it at least two or three times already in this thread) that if you *don't* have a headphone amp, you will be better served by getting a DIFFERENT headphone that was designed to not NEED a headphone amp. The Beyer DT250 have a someone similar presentation and sound signature to the HD600, but actually sound *better* out of low-power sources, and cost much less money than the HD600. So in many ways it's true that if you aren't going to invest in a dedicated headphone amp, you probably shouldn't get the HD600/580, because you could get something that will effectively sound as good or better for less money.


Quote:

The X-Can v.2 is a highly respected, well reviewed mid-range headphone amp that makes a good yardstick for this discussion. It is typically the kind of amp a newbie would end up with who is told "get a dedicated amp at all costs".

It's NOT a good yardstick for this discussion, precisely because it's such a controversial amp. Do a search here on Head-Fi for "X-CAN." You'll find that the reviews/impressions are very mixed. Some people love this amp, some people hate it. The same can't be said for other amps in that price category such as the MG Head, Creek, Little, or Corda -- all of which get almost all favorable reviews. I've owned the X-CANv2. I thought it sounded great out of my equipment, which is very good. But out of some lesser equipment it didn't sound nearly as good. It's too much of a finicky amp to use as a yardstick.



Quote:

And that last statement didn't ring any bells of curiousity? Did you at least investigate the headphone outputs of those quoted Marantz and Nad models? If so, I have not yet read the results on this site, a surprising omission given the relevance of such an investigation to posters here.

What part of "The Senns will sound decent (and some who haven't heard them on a good amp might say they sound "good") out of SOME receivers that have decent headphone circuitry" is unclear? I fully conceded that some people feel the HD600 sound good out of a few amps/receivers.


Quote:

Quote: "...isn't driving the HD600 to their potential, and with your source and your receiver's headphone jack, they don't sound anywhere *near* as good as they can sound." This is our point of dispute in a nutshell. I believe they do sound quite near as good as they can sound.

Then there's not much more I can say. I know for a fact that you're wrong, but you refuse to even consider that possibility. I've heard the HD600 with equipment comparable to what you have, and I've heard the HD600 with the equipment that I have now. The difference is huge. Before you get defensive on me

I didn't say that out of your equipment they sound BAD. I said they aren't anywhere near their potential. Those are two VERY different things. All I can say is that if you're happy, more power to you. But don't let the fact that you're happy and don't want to spend any more money make you try to convince everyone else that it doesn't get much better than what you have, because it most definitely does.


Quote:

But beyond who's right, there's a question of value for money. If we assume you're right and better sound CAN be obtained from certain dedicated HP amps (obviously not the X-Can!), is the difference worth it for the average buyer? Some of these dedicated amps are horrendously expense, and most just aren't available outside the US. For many it simply isn't economically viable to shell out for a receiver/integrated AND a dedicated amp when the former may do both jobs perfectly well--i.e., to the satisfaction of 95% of buyers. This is my objection to much of the advice given on this site, that you do not say, "You can get better sound with a dedicated amp, though it may not always be worth the extra". More often you say something like my quote above about not considering quality cans without budgeting for a dedicated amp. This I dispute and will continue to dispute. My 580 gives excellent result from the Marantz, sufficient to satisfy most audiophiles. If better sound can be obtained for more (usually much more) money, so be it, but I'm satisfied with what I have and do not believe for one moment that I am squandering more than the last 2 to 3 percent of the potential of the 580, most especially after my X-Can experience. So why not investigate the output of a few quality amps (and there are far better amps than the 4000!) and permit your findings to inform all future replies to newbies? Otherwise this site and its regular contributors are letting those newbies down.

Again, you're missing the point. It's not that the HD600 can't sound "good" without a dedicated headphone amp. The point is that other headphones that cost less money can and do sound better than the HD600 without a dedicated headphone amp. If you are really as concerned with "value" as you say you are, then you also shouldn't be recommending the HD600 without an amp, because people could spend less money and get better sound. That's the point I keep trying to make here.7