[thuribility]

You have heard may be 50% of the potential of HD600/650, if even that. Get yourself a CFA3 or GSX2 and a decent dac and reevaluate.

I see, I have been overlooking the critical importance of amps, so may be in the wrong thread asking the wrong question.

 

[thuribility]

I haven't heard the exact headphones you're referring to, so take my comments with a grain of salt. But I wouldn't really expect MORE detail than an electrostat. However, the HE1000 series is often said to be as close to electrostatic performance as you can get, without going eStat. Plus, you get the benefits of planar bass and sub-bass, which is AWESOME. On top of that, the HE1000 is some of the most comfortable headphones on the market.

Will it outperform your best speaker system? I doubt it. Headphones are simply at a disadvantage there. But I've never heard anything come closer to the "speaker sound" than my HE1000 Stealth. And the SE is said to be even better.

I say, take the plunge.

I may well do so! (Although chesebert may have diverted me down another important rabbit hole first.) Really I'm trying to suss out exactly what categories of incremental gains I'm likely to see with modern hi-fi cans over these old Stax. I've found that I like ruthlessly transparent, crispy, highly revealing sound (and I seem to have a reasonable tolerance for treble, even if it does eventually get fatiguing) — and so I'm wondering if the HE1000 series, for example, will get me any more of that. Based on what I'm reading so far, I suspect not. Rather, I'll get more realism, sound-staging, dynamic range. And bass. All of which are important to me, but what I like most is being able to hear the guitarist blinking his eyes.

 

[DP42]

I see, I have been overlooking the critical importance of amps, so may be in the wrong thread asking the wrong question.

I have Ananda OG, LCD2-2C, and E3, and have owned/own G111 MK2, V222, S17 Pro, and MJ3. My general take is that some headphones scale better than others, and some need a good amp matching to sound right. My DAC is the BF2/64, and the best I have heard was MJ3+E3. S17 Pro has some of the MJ3 magic at half the price, but way less resolution; the V222 has the MJ3 resolution, but less magic. And, the G111 pairs well with LCD2-2C for a budget setup, but is too bright with the E3. You will hear a lot of folks praising their particular setup, then you try some things and find you feel differently. To me the amp is nearly as important at the HP, but you might have to try for yourself to see what your ears like.

Sounds like you hit a home run with your speaker setup, HP setup might be a bit difficult to match your expectations. My suggestion is to enjoy your speaker setup as your reference system, then dabble in HP stuff as a side hobby. Of course, you can go end game on the HP setup at the beginning, but I am treating my HP pursuits as a hobby, and not stressing on the perfect sound. I listen for a half a day on Sunday afternoons and get plenty of enjoyment, and will upgrade/swap out stuff when the time is right.

 

[borkenarrou]

I may well do so! (Although chesebert may have diverted me down another important rabbit hole first.) Really I'm trying to suss out exactly what categories of incremental gains I'm likely to see with modern hi-fi cans over these old Stax. I've found that I like ruthlessly transparent, crispy, highly revealing sound (and I seem to have a reasonable tolerance for treble, even if it does eventually get fatiguing) — and so I'm wondering if the HE1000 series, for example, will get me any more of that. Based on what I'm reading so far, I suspect not. Rather, I'll get more realism, sound-staging, dynamic range. And bass. All of which are important to me, but what I like most is being able to hear the guitarist blinking his eyes.

HE1000SE + BF3 or Soekris DAC2541 + MJ3, Hifiman planars pairs very well with R2R DACs.

 

[thuribility]

HE1000SE + BF3 or Soekris DAC2541 + MJ3, Hifiman planars pairs very well with R2R DACs.

Just to make sure this newbie is translating the lingo, we're talking Schiit? I.e., BF3 is Bifrost 2/64 and MJ3 is Mjolnir?

 

[borkenarrou]

Just to make sure this newbie is translating the lingo, we're talking Schiit? I.e., BF3 is Bifrost 2/64 and MJ3 is Mjolnir?

Yup, I suggest an audition first before pulling the trigger, if you can visit a Canjam near your city they should have these and many more gears.

 

[Graham Boswell]

For these 2000 dollar headphones are you gonna need to pair them with similarly priced amps and dacs? or would a 1k dac amp set be enough?

 

[Conan1974]

I paired mine Focal Clear and later Denon AH D9200 with Singxer SDA2 amp/ dac. On this one I was listening to Focal Stellia. Nothing wrong. Nice and pleasant sound.
No You do not need expensive dac/amps if You have expensive headphones. My opinion
Soon he will work with ZMF Auteur Classic.

 

[PinkyPowers]

For these 2000 dollar headphones are you gonna need to pair them with similarly priced amps and dacs? or would a 1k dac amp set be enough?

That's a complicated question.

They will still sound like superior headphones from mid-tier gear. But they will sound their best from more expensive gear.

This is true for most mid-tier headphones, as well. Even a HiFiMAN Sundara will sound better from source gear many times more expensive than Sundara itself.

A good headphone, even an inexpensive one, will scale nicely. A GREAT headphone will scale even better, because they resolve more of the nuances of the source gear.

I think what you're really asking is, will you still enjoy the difference of upgrading to a higher end headphone without upgrading your source gear, and the answer is a definitive YES.

 

[WaveTheory]

For these 2000 dollar headphones are you gonna need to pair them with similarly priced amps and dacs? or would a 1k dac amp set be enough?

I think @PinkyPowers did a decent job answering with the big themes. With the trio of Hedd2/Hekse/Tungsten it gets a little fuzzier. The Hekse is easy-ish to drive (from a power standpoint), the Hedd2 is middling, and the Tungsten's need for a nuclear power plant is not unwarranted haha. But, the Lake People G111mk2 at $549 (was recently marked down to $389 on Drop but I think that window has closed), will handle all 3 pretty well. To get it to push Tungsten, you'll need to open it up and toggle the input gain dip switches to at least +18dB, but it does a bang up job if you do. It will comfortably push HE1000se and Hedd2 on its stock gain settings. I've used the G111mk2 + HE1000se combo A LOT to evaluate entry level and mid-fi DACs. Two DAC pairings I recommend for it are the Geshelli Labs J2S (I had the 4493 version w/ the Sparkos 2502 op amps) and the Schiit Bifrost 2/64. The J2S as I had it configured can be had for $550-650 depending on what case type you buy. The Bifrost is $799. So with the G111mk2 at $549 you're looking at a $1100-1350ish signal chain that will drive these headphones quite well. Are there better signal chains out there? Of course. But you will pay to experience the privilege. Does this get you started?

 

[Failed Engineer]

I recall reading HD650/6XX has tremendous scaling potential and can be God tier when connected to beefy amp.

Beefy has nothing to do with it, but partially correct. Needs the JAR treatment first and then at minimum an amp designed for high impedance dynamic drivers (these are generally not high power headphone amps). I've paired it with a $5k custom designed amp that uses it's impedance curve for gain and it's stunning.

For me, if I were spending $2k on a headphone today, it would pretty easily be a properly maintained used OG Utopia. Minimal amping requirements to get to 80% of performance, myriad choices under $1k to get to 90% of performance, and you can spend to the moon to optimize it and it'll never be the bottleneck.

 

[Rextilleon]

Wavetheory
What do you think is the performance jump from $2000 to the higher levels? If you could somehow quantify…

Depends on how much higher you want to go. Huge difference between HE1 and anything at 2000 on the market.

 

[ADUHF]

Hello, Fellow Audiophiles!

This morning my comparison video of the HEDDphone 2, HiFiMan HE1000se, and Modhouse Tungsten DS went live on YouTube (watch here). All 3 of those headphones sound excellent and represent excellent values. They are all also right about $2000US (though HE1000se went on sale for $1700 between my making the video and posting it publicly - I don't know if that price is permanent but $2000 probably is).

Having had the privilege of reviewing headphones and associated audio gear for a few years now, and thanks to the generosity of the audiophile community, I've had the opportunity to hear a broad cross section of the headphone market from the entry level all the way through the top of the line. Here near the halfway point of calendar year 2024 and having recently reviewed the Tungsten and HEDDphone 2, I find myself seeing the headphone market taking shape such that $2000 currently represents something of a value and performance sweet spot for hi-end headphones. In my opinion, the trio of HEDDphone 2, HE1000se (HEKse), and Tungsten DS have warped the price-to-performance curve in their favor to a degree such that I'm finding myself making these recommendations to the headphone community:

1) Shop around and play around with different headphones to your heart's content up until a value of somewhere in the $1200-1500 range.

2) If you're looking for meaningful sonic improvement over the mid-fi/low hi-fi categories, I recommend pinching your pennies to get to $2000 where you can snag your preferred model of the HEDD2, HE1000se, Tungsten DS trio.

3) To meaningfully outperform HEDD2/HEKse/Tungsten DS, be prepared to spend in excess of $4000US just for the headphone, while at the same time being aware that not every $4k+ headphone will bring the combination of tuning and technicalities that you will like more than what your preferred member of that trio already brings. In other words, be careful jumping up. There is a WIDE range of sounds and technical chops at the ultra hi-end of the market and not every unit is a guaranteed tuning, technical, or enjoyment upgrade over HEDD2/HEKse/Tungsten DS. Of note here is that I'm not shaming anyone for exploring the TOTL. There are some stunners up there (proud owner of OG Susvara and OG Utopia here). There are also some that are...let's just say less than stunning. I simply attempt to establish realistic expectations.

I flesh out those 3 points, as well as how my music tastes and sonic preferences have formed them, in the video linked above.

I create this post to ask: What do you think? Is $2000 emerging as a hi-end headphone sweet spot in the middle of 2024? Am I thinking about his all wrong?

I am NOT the final word on any of this. Nor is as any other reviewer or any other individual commenter, manufacturer, or retailer. The final word, as always, rests with the person contemplating whether or not they should enter their credit card info to get [insert headphone name here]. But I'm very curious what the community thinks.

So Head-Fi community, please (respectfully) discuss!

Fwiw, there is a Hi-end Audio forum here where you might get a better reply to this type of question, WaveTheory.

Personally, I could never justify spending more than a few hundred on a headphone, no matter how good the sound is or the reviews are. And don't believe there really is a good correlation between price and performance. I know there are many others here though who disagree with this.

Can you get better drivers if you spend a bit more? I think the answer to that is probably yes. And you can probably also get a headphone that is better constructed, from better materials.

Will you be able to really hear a difference though? I think the jury is probably still out on that until we have some better objective criteria for comparison, which can also factor in individual tastes and preferences to some degree.

Good drivers are also beginning to come down in price. So that's also something a new buyer should consider or factor into their purchasing decisions. And you may or may not be able to find a headphone that fits your particular use case within a specific price range as well. So that's also something to consider.

 

[Vamp898]

I thought so for a long time, but the best Headphones i have heard so far have been in the ~400€ range.

There are some very good Sounding Headphones in the 1000€ range too like the LCD-X but the issue is that most Headphones that get more expensive, start to have eccentric sound signature that diverts from the original song and cause a lot of songs to be no longer enjoyable.

I used the MDR-Z1R for quite some time as from all Headphones in that price league, they were one of the few that made all my Music still sound good. But it was still a big difference to the original sound of the song.

As even the most expensive Headphones i have heard so far (D8000, YH-5000SE, Susvara) haven't even been close to beat my IEM i thought, Headphones just can't do that. Headphones can't sound good, they all sound strange/different and this is just how they are. But then i discovered, that i just bought too expensive headphones and that cheaper ones can have excellent sound. That is when i felt stupid.

The following is my personal experience after being for years in the Hobby now and spending more than 15k on equipment, others may have other experience.

In Terms of Headphones, sound improves significantly until the 400~500€ Class (with a few examples going up to 1000€)

From that on, Sound Signatures start to get very strange that causes issues with a lot of music. That is the point where most audiophiles give up and start to blame the Song and start listening to Classic and Jazz (even though they don't like it, but it makes their Headphones sound good and they are listening to their Headphone, not to the music). Because when your 2000€ Headphone doesn't sound well, it has to be the song, right? Otherwise it would mean you just wasted 2000€ on something that doesn't sound good.

No Headphone i have ever heard comes close to the sonic performance of the IEM i heard (Sony IER-M9, FitEar TG335, Westone Mach 70, Vision Ears VE8 and so on), and trying to get there with Planars cost a lot of sacrifices. I even tried the HE-1 but it was not even close (I do not understand the Hype for the HE-1 at all. It was surprisingly average).

And that is why i own the HD 490 Pro now, 389€ (i bought it tax-free in Japan for 319€) and its the best i have ever had and heard in terms of Over Ear Headphones with the MDR-MV1 coming in as a close second.

If you want better Sonic Performance, you have to use an IEM imho

 

[ADUHF]

Great post, Vamp898! I don't use IEMs, but think you make a number of good points above.