[Andrew_WOT]

I would suggest you to just go and listen to both of these HP's instead of blindly defending Amir

"Can't agree" was based on how they sound to me, they are on my desk right now. Graph was just objective evidence to back that up.
MG with Stellia pads has deeper and harder hitting bass, but on stock fabric they are quite close, so not sure how exactly you came up with one "smoking" the other.
You seem to convinced yourself that if people use measurements as reference they are not listening to their equipment.

 

[bfreedma]

USB hub is not solving any noise or sound degradation issues to me. I'm totally with the idea that less is more and would propt for all in one box solution like Atom HE, but I'm a bit sucker for certain streaming platforms with electronic music.

If a powered USB hub isn't addressing a "noisy USB connection due to computer generated noise", then your issue is not a noisy USB connection.

How are you determining a baseline for non-degraded sound to establish that your USB connection is problematic?

 

[gregorio]

How are you determining a baseline for non-degraded sound to establish that your USB connection is problematic?

I’ve listed what appear to be the accepted baselines:

1. All DACs output audible noise/buzzing and all enlightened audiophiles know you need expensive audiophile solutions to get rid of it.
2. If audiophile salesmen, shills and those defending their purchases seem like nice people, they are always to be believed.
3. Anyone who uses proven science/the actual facts to dispute what nice salesmen claim are “know it all’s” and wrong. This is especially true of Amir, who is automatically always wrong.
4. You can’t measure audio properties and listen to music, it’s one or the other. And, taking audio measurements damages your hearing, so you can no longer hear the huge differences made by audiophile electronic components, which can’t be measured anyway.
5. Audiophiles can hear digital signals in the hundreds of megaHertz range, which makes those signals analogue rather than digital and therefore subject to noise/interference.

G

 

[audiobomber]

Digital noise from RFI and EMI does not cause buzzing or hum like noise in an analog system. Digital noise obscures low level detail, compresses the soundstage, and causes high frequency grit. Of course the better (more resolving) your audio system, the more this becomes noticeable and objectionable.

 

[gregorio]

Digital noise from RFI and EMI does not cause buzzing or hum like noise in an analog system.

Correct, it’s rejected by the DAC.

Digital noise obscures low level detail, compresses the soundstage, and causes high frequency grit.

Digital noise is called “dither”. It’s white noise, so doesn’t cause “high frequency grit” and at lower than about -110dB it’s inaudible at any reasonable listening level, does not obscure any “low level detail” or “compress the soundstage”.

Of course the better (more resolving) your audio system, the more this becomes noticeable and objectionable.

It doesn’t matter how resolving your system is. It can’t resolve more than the mics recorded in the first place and you can’t play it loud enough to hear the digital noise floor unless you listen at hearing damage levels.

G

 

[audiobomber]

Correct, it’s rejected by the DAC.

Digital noise is called “dither”. It’s white noise, so doesn’t cause “high frequency grit” and at lower than about -110dB it’s inaudible at any reasonable listening level, does not obscure any “low level detail” or “compress the soundstage”.

It doesn’t matter how resolving your system is. It can’t resolve more than the mics recorded in the first place and you can’t play it loud enough to hear the digital noise floor unless you listen at hearing damage levels.

G

My entire experience with digital audio indicates that what you say, is wrong. I've carefully tried to determine whether techys or audiophiles have it right.
Do properly designed USB cables all sound the same? IME Hell no!
Do network improvements like switches and ethernet cables affect sound quality? IME Absolutely!
Do power supply upgrades matter? IME Substantially!
Do USB cleaners help? IME Sometimes.

Just one little example among many, with pro quality gear: The Oyaide neo+ Class A USB cable sounded better than the one supplied with the Benchmark DAC3, despite technical claims that this couldn't possibly matter.

I don't think we have anything more to discuss.

 

[gregorio]

My entire experience with digital audio says everything you believe is wrong.

I didn’t state any of my beliefs, just the actual facts. If your experience says something contrary to the proven facts, that’s an issue for you and your experience, not the actual proven facts of course.

I've carefully tried to determine whether techys or audiophiles have it right.

Sure, all the scientists who discovered and proved digital audio were wrong, as were all the scientists and engineers who developed it, all the world’s encyclopaedias, text books on the subject and all the world’s universities, lecturers, professors, professional audio engineers and international audio bodies are all wrong too. The only ones who are right are audiophile salesmen and those gullible enough to believe them.

Isn’t ignoring ALL of the above (except for audiophile marketing) the exact opposite of “carefully tried to determine …”? Anyhow, thanks for perfectly demonstrating my previous points:

“2. If audiophile salesmen, shills and those defending their purchases seem like nice people, they are always to be believed.
3. Anyone who uses proven science/the actual facts to dispute what nice salesmen claim are “know it all’s” and wrong.”

Do properly designed USB cables all sound the same? Verdict: Hell no!

Of course they do, USB is a standardised international protocol. Either a cable conforms to that standard or it doesn’t.

Do network improvements like switches and ethernet cables affect sound quality? Absolutely!

Obviously not, otherwise everything downloaded from the internet which has passed through dozens of switches and god knows how much Ethernet cable would sound like trash.

Do power supply upgrades matter? Substantially!

Sure, if the power supply in your audiophile bit of kit is significantly worse than that found in cheap DACs.

Do USB cleaners help? Sometimes.

Again sure, if your audiophile DAC is incapable of “cleaning” the USB signal as well as a cheap DAC.

I don't think we have anything more to discuss.

As I can’t blindly accept and discuss audiophile marketing falsehoods and you don’t want to discuss the actual facts, then “yes” it seems we have nothing to discuss.

G

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Do properly designed USB cables all sound the same? IME Hell no!
Do network improvements like switches and ethernet cables affect sound quality? IME Absolutely!

How anyone can claim something like this with a straight face?

 

[bfreedma]

My entire experience with digital audio indicates that what you say, is wrong. I've carefully tried to determine whether techys or audiophiles have it right.
Do properly designed USB cables all sound the same? IME Hell no!
Do network improvements like switches and ethernet cables affect sound quality? IME Absolutely!
Do power supply upgrades matter? IME Substantially!
Do USB cleaners help? IME Sometimes.

Just one little example among many, with pro quality gear: The Oyaide neo+ Class A USB cable sounded better than the one supplied with the Benchmark DAC3, despite technical claims that this couldn't possibly matter.

I don't think we have anything more to discuss.

Let me get this straight

You did uncontrolled subjective testing and now believe you are right and the 10s of thousands of scientists, engineers, and standards organizations are all wrong. But have no proof to offer beyond “but my ears”

Sure - that’s logical. I’m certainly convinced.. I’ll let everyone know that the digital domain as we know it is a simulation/construct and we’re all in the matrix…

 

[audiobomber]

You guys should stop pretending that you speak for all engineers and scientists. Frankly most know little about sound quality. Many specialists in the field of sound reproduction disagree with your dogma.

 

[gregorio]

You guys should stop pretending that you speak for all engineers and scientists.

And you should stop pretending that you speak for all audiophile marketing. Plus, as you obviously don’t seem to realise, science and engineering principles are published as peer reviewed papers and international specifications precisely so people like me can “speak for them”, that’s the whole point! Didn’t you know that?

Many specialists in the field of sound reproduction disagree with your dogma.

Sure, audiophile salesmen! Professional specialists in the field of digital and digital audio (but not audiophile salesmen) do agree with my “dogma” because it’s not called “dogma” by rational people, it’s called proven science and engineering. If this “dogma” is incorrect, then there is no digital age or internet, you’re not seriously claiming that are you?

G

 

[bfreedma]

You guys should stop pretending that you speak for all engineers and scientists. Frankly most know little about sound quality. Many specialists in the field of sound reproduction disagree with your dogma.

You should stop stating your personal preferences and opinions as the sole supporting evidence in claiming peer reviewed science is incorrect.

But go ahead - provide some names of the specialists in the field who side with you. No vendors or others with profit motives please. Should be a short list of experts who believe subjective listening is a better form of evaluating audio reproduction than controlled testing. If you can’t come up with any names, some measurements showing audible differences in USB cables, Ethernet cables, and/or Ethernet switches would be great.

 

[audiobomber]

But go ahead - provide some names of the specialists in the field who side with you. No vendors or others with profit motives please.

That's a ridiculous limitation. Audiophile designers, many of whom are engineers, are the very people with the interest and capabilities.

I don't have a blanket objection to objective listening tests, but I've never seen one I consider valid. The standard ABX test is hopeless. The only valid listening test takes place in my listening room, with my music, through my system, for an extended time. I have no objection to doing it blinded, and I sometimes have.

I've said everything I wanted to say in this thread, so you're welcome to have the last word, although we all know it will just be more dogma, which most audiophiles rightly dismiss.

 

[gregorio]

Audiophile designers, many of whom are engineers, are the very people with the interest and capabilities.

Of course they’re not, talk about ridiculous! How many of them even have a degree in computer network protocols? And if they do, where do you think they got it, Head-Fi, Stereophile Magazine or maybe a university? The actual people with the “interest and capabilities” are the scientists and engineers who invented, test and maintain the protocols, the organisations that publish the technical standards and the universities that teach them. Who, apart from deluded audiophiles, wouldn’t know that?

But wait, you’ve already dismissed all universities, science, encyclopaedias, professionals, etc., in favour of those trying to sell you audiophile products. Now that’s dogma!

I don't have a blanket objection to objective listening tests, but I've never seen one I consider valid. The standard ABX test is hopeless.

How are you not contradicting yourself? Stating you’ve never seen a valid objective listening test and that ABX tests are hopeless IS a “blanket objection to objective testing”!

The only valid listening test takes place in my listening room, with my music, through my system, for an extended time.

I’ll alert all the world’s universities, scientists, engineers and mastering studios, etc., that in order to be valid, they have to come to your listening room to do listening tests. How can you even post this stuff with a straight face?

… we all know it will just be more dogma, which most audiophiles rightly dismiss.

That seems to be the nub of problem. You dismiss the actual facts/science but completely swallow the audiophile marketing dogma?!

Call me crazy for believing the scientific dogma; that 1+1=2, that the earth isn’t flat, etc. You go right ahead believing the opposite and considering yourself enlightened for dismissing that dogma.

G

 

[OCC7N]

Impression of: iFi iPower Elite + iPurifier3 + Ground cable

I prefere Stock PSU and usb cable + ground cable.

Maybe its because the RME ADi-2 DAC FS is crap anyway?

Im not impressed with this DAC in general. So im maybe biased

Optical or USB its the same.