iPhone 5 (and new Touch) has totally new dock connector - 'Lightning' - adapters available but no line-out

[georgelai57]

Quite interesting all this.  

It looks like to summarize - there is no way whatsoever to pull an analog line out from the iPhone 5.  The dock plug is fully digital, and using an adapter with it just seems to give access to the USB control, which supplies audio digital data and power, or sync data if you plug it into a computer.  So it works with stuff like the CLAS that does full non analog control via USB, or cars that use legit USB DAC access to the iPhone (not Hyundai that has USB control plus a LOD style analog plugin).  Now, we may see (from the best-financed companies, since this won't be trivial) a little clip on for the bottom of the iPhone5 that has a DAC inside and converts the digital data from Lightning to analog mini out.  The simple fact is that ALO is going to sell a lot of CLAS to iPhone5 owners because the iPhone5 is basically a paperweight for audio systems without those.  There's not going to be a cheapo line out solution for a while, unless someone can make that aformentioned clip on for cheap.  Honestly I bet a small one could be developed that has a mini USB port and an audio port on it...no different from a Sendstation dock...except with some electronics inside and likely a $100-200 price tag.  But if you can afford an iPhone5 already, then who cares?  

A good summary but I think the "innovative" China companies like Fiio will be able to go below USD100. Witness their products like e11 etc. The CLAS and HP-P1 will be in a different Class if you'll pardon the pun but the Fiios and their ilk will give them a run for the money. At least I for one hope so.

 

[scootermafia]

Yep, give it 3-4 months, Fiio should have the clip on we need to get a line out in the car.  Hopefully they can make a non powered one, but that may be too much to ask (if it can draw power from the iPhone)

 

[georgelai57]

Yep, give it 3-4 months, Fiio should have the clip on we need to get a line out in the car.  Hopefully they can make a non powered one, but that may be too much to ask (if it can draw power from the iPhone)

I'm confident they can but I think it will be battery powered. I know HRT has launched in limited markets an iStreamer Mobile for the iPad that draws power from the iPad itself. They said they couldn't do so for the iPhone 4S but I don't know about the iPhone 5 though.

 

[Kevin_Halverson]

In response to the comment from 'georgelai57' the product he mentions is incorrect.  It is not an "iStreamer Mobile" rather it is a HeadStreamer Mobile and can be used with an iPad (1st, 2nd or 3rd) generation via the HMA (host mode adapter).  This product is now available in some of our 40 markets with more markets to follow over the next few months.
 
Kevin Halverson
CTO
High Resolution Technologies, LLC

 

[bixby]

Quote:

Quite interesting all this.  
 
It looks like to summarize - there is no way whatsoever to pull an analog line out from the iPhone 5.  The dock plug is fully digital, and using an adapter with it just seems to give access to the USB control, which supplies audio digital data and power, or sync data if you plug it into a computer.  So it works with stuff like the CLAS that does full non analog control via USB, or cars that use legit USB DAC access to the iPhone (not Hyundai that has USB control plus a LOD style analog plugin).  Now, we may see (from the best-financed companies, since this won't be trivial) a little clip on for the bottom of the iPhone5 that has a DAC inside and converts the digital data from Lightning to analog mini out.  The simple fact is that ALO is going to sell a lot of CLAS to iPhone5 owners because the iPhone5 is basically a paperweight for audio systems without those.  There's not going to be a cheapo line out solution for a while, unless someone can make that aformentioned clip on for cheap.  Honestly I bet a small one could be developed that has a mini USB port and an audio port on it...no different from a Sendstation dock...except with some electronics inside and likely a $100-200 price tag.  But if you can afford an iPhone5 already, then who cares?  

Well summarized,!  Seems Apple can reel in the accessory manufacturers that simply provided a simple pinout from the old 30 pin connector to a mini phone plug, to full fledged "made for ipod" partners.  This new world order would require use of the ipod accessory protocol and its related licensing from Apple.  From a blog noted below in regard to making accessories for ipods and ipads.
 
 
What do you need to do to get Apple’s approval for making “approved” accessories that work with the iPod/iPhone, etc? This:

Participate in the MFi licensing program to develop electronic accessories that connect to iPod, iPhone, and iPad. Licensed developers gain access to technical documentation, hardware components, technical support and certification logos. Developers receive technical specifications describing the iPod Accessory protocol, the communication protocol used to interact with iPod, iPhone, and iPad. Developers also gain access to the hardware connectors and components that are required to manufacture iPod, iPhone, and iPad accessories.  

Source:  http://blog.makezine.com/2011/05/12/why-google-choosing-arduino-matters-and-the-end-of-made-for-ipod-tm/

In addition to the licensing there is an authentication coprocessor supplied by Apple and integrated into the accessory for many functions a given accessory may provide.

 

[georgelai57]

In response to the comment from 'georgelai57' the product he mentions is incorrect.  It is not an "iStreamer Mobile" rather it is a HeadStreamer Mobile and can be used with an iPad (1st, 2nd or 3rd) generation via the HMA (host mode adapter).  This product is now available in some of our 40 markets with more markets to follow over the next few months.

Kevin Halverson
CTO
High Resolution Technologies, LLC

Thanks for the clarification, Kevin.

 

[bmichels]

This may be the solution if you can afford a,n external DAC/AMP.  If it works, then a SOLO in not needed anymore ? 
 
 
 
Apple is also releasing in Europe a " Micro-USB Adaper " :    
 
http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/13/apple-lightning-to-micro-usb-adapter/
 
 
Will this allow to bypass the internal DAC (like a CKK on an iPad) and supply digital music to an External DAC ? 

 

[figgie]

All digital.
 
Hmm
 
I wonder if the new iPhone/iPods support higher resolution music?
 
If I recall, DVD-A and SACD did this and specifically killed any option of digital out unless through HDMI. They had Analog out... Where is iFixit tear down! lol

Apple is using the iAP for the digital side. There is zero reason to protect CD quality rez in the digital domain. I can see the higer rez files being "protected" in the digital domain.

 

[samsquanch]

Quote:

As for the ubiquitous line out for the iphone, come on, do you really think 95% of iphone owners even know what a line out is?  We are the 1% club if ever there was one.

 
What ever percent (I don't have statistics in front of me so I won't quote numbers) of that 95% will find out real quick what a line out is when the buy an iphone 5 and a $30 adapter then try to cram all that into the dock of their radio and get nothing.  You don't think this is a big deal?  A concern relegated to the fringes of silver wire clutching nerds?  No way.  It's a dirty trick and it's insulting.
 
Even if they add a 1/8" connector to their adapter (like the one I showed earlier in this thread) they're still stripping the line in option.  Plenty of devices use this feature as well, Tascam makes a nice stereo mic that you can use for field recordings, Alesis makes a mixer that allows you to feed audio into an ipod for recording, the app Audio Tools allows you to hook up a microphone to your iphone/ipod touch and do things like rta, spl readings and so forth.  And we're supposed to look at this as progress?  Nope.

 

[shotgunshane]

I don't think the Apple employees know what the lightning adapter will and will not work with.  After checking with a Technician for an extended period of time, they told me it will not work with car systems using "ipod out" connectivity through the 30 pin connector but would play audio out to dock speakers.  It seems ipod out has more to do with controls not necessarily audio.  Still confusing none the less.
 
Then they told me the lightning to usb cable would allow the iphone 5 to play through any usb system.  I specifically asked if it had to be Apple certified and while not saying it had to be certified, they seemed to believe it would work with any usb connection.  I have my doubts.
 
So lesson learned is the Apple employees don't have a clue. We're all in the dark and someone will just have to try and report back.

 

[alpha10]

Actually, the only logical explanation is that the adapter has a DAC built in to convert the all digital output to analogue for legacy devices.

The DAC in the iDevice is also pretty cheap (not bad, but cheap). As this adapter costs more than a lighting to usb adapter (or other dock adapters) it is not unlikely that it contains a DAC.

 

[dannytang]

Perhaps this MacWorld article will shed some light on things: http://www.macworld.com/article/1168555/what_apples_new_lightning_connector_means_for_you.html
 
Specifically, they mention
 
 

The adapters support analog and USB audio, as well as syncing and charging. However, according to Apple, the adapters don’t support video output, and “Some 30-pin accessories are not supported.”

 

[bixby]

Quote:

 
What ever percent (I don't have statistics in front of me so I won't quote numbers) of that 95% will find out real quick what a line out is when the buy an iphone 5 and a $30 adapter then try to cram all that into the dock of their radio and get nothing.  You don't think this is a big deal?  A concern relegated to the fringes of silver wire clutching nerds?  No way.  It's a dirty trick and it's insulting.
 
Even if they add a 1/8" connector to their adapter (like the one I showed earlier in this thread) they're still stripping the line in option.  Plenty of devices use this feature as well, Tascam makes a nice stereo mic that you can use for field recordings, Alesis makes a mixer that allows you to feed audio into an ipod for recording, the app Audio Tools allows you to hook up a microphone to your iphone/ipod touch and do things like rta, spl readings and so forth.  And we're supposed to look at this as progress?  Nope.

Hey, I'm not supporting this move either, I just don't think Apple cares about a small minority that needs the capabilities and backwards compatibility you mention.  I do hope that they encourage third parties to develop ways to keep the legacy accessories working with new ipods and iphones.  And our views that this is not progress really don't matter now, they are not going to go back and change anything.  I just hope there will be ways to keep using amps and such with some sort of intermediary device.

 

[figgie]

Quote:

Perhaps this MacWorld article will shed some light on things: http://www.macworld.com/article/1168555/what_apples_new_lightning_connector_means_for_you.html
 
Specifically, they mention
 
 

Now unless they integrated a super super CHEAP DAC in the convertor. I can see that as possible.
 
They might but if it is that cheap, why not use headphone out? Can not be any worse.

 

[the wizard of oz]

I am so glad I went DX100 route and not iDevice plus iDAC/HAmp. Am tired of non-standard connectors and proprietary protocols. Long live Android, µ-USB, µSDXC slots, gap-less & drag'n'drop.