[mefxes]

  I am the proof...I gave my opinion. Don't try to be a smarty pants
 
Edit: I bet you didn't even read half of what I wrote but that's okay, ignorance is everywhere nowadays *shrugs*

 
Yes, I've read.

I'm just showing you that your line applies to you so you shouldn't say something like that and then throw opinions and no "proof" at all. It's nonsense.
 
I understand your view. I understand different views of the same matter and I respect you and everybody else.
 
But my little grain here was clear: Linking surround sound to performance in FPS games simply isn't truth.
 
And the "proof" is that in more than 15 years in fps competitive gaming around the world not even once I knew or heard about pro players using anything different than stereo.
 
We are talking about lots of money in sponsorship and prizes ppl try to win, where every little edge is tried and used if works. I could list a lot of different tweaks we learned about every aspect of setting up everything to the best performance possible over these years starting in Quake 3, going to Counter-Strike, then CSS and now CS:GO. And none concerns surround sound.
 
 - Ppl tried and learned about anything hardware related 
 - Ppl tried and learned about mice, even overclocking mice
 - Ppl tried and learned about monitors, even overclocking monitors, using different resolutions, distorted colors and res
 - Ppl tried and learned about keyboards, ghosting, mechanical
 - Ppl tried and learned about game cvars
 - Ppl tried and learned about enhancement drugs
 - Ppl tried and learned about cheats
 - Ppl tried and learned about sound, of course, software and harware related. Years ago every player had his headphone with their USB DAC, for example. Not nowadays.
 
I've seen everything changing and evolving over the years and using surround sound to improve pinpoint location of sounds wasn't one ever.
 
I attended to my first Cyberathlete Professional League in 2001 and been in touch with pros since then. Real competition. The best performance possible. Ppl play to win 500k USD.
 
If surround sound in games had any advantage, even placebo advantage, pro players would be using it. And, again, no one is. No one ever in all versions of Counter-Strike I can assure you.
 
That's my help and that's it. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone anymore. I see that there's a huge gap between what we expect from gaming, so I understand you guys.

 

[pietcux]

Yes, I've read.


I'm just showing you that your line applies to you so you shouldn't say something like that and then throw opinions and no "proof" at all. It's nonsense.

I understand your view. I understand different views of the same matter and I respect you and everybody else.

But my little grain here was clear: Linking surround sound to performance in FPS games simply isn't truth.

And the "proof" is that in more than 15 years in fps competitive gaming around the world not even once I knew or heard about pro players using anything different than stereo.

We are talking about lots of money in sponsorship and prizes ppl try to win, where every little edge is tried and used if works. I could list a lot of different tweaks we learned about every aspect of setting up everything to the best performance possible over these years starting in Quake 3, going to Counter-Strike, then CSS and now CS:GO. And none concerns surround sound.

 - Ppl tried and learned about anything hardware related 
 - Ppl tried and learned about mice, even overclocking mice
 - Ppl tried and learned about monitors, even overclocking monitors, using different resolutions, distorted colors and res
 - Ppl tried and learned about keyboards, ghosting, mechanical
 - Ppl tried and learned about game cvars
 - Ppl tried and learned about enhancement drugs
 - Ppl tried and learned about cheats
 - Ppl tried and learned about sound, of course, software and harware related. Years ago every player had his headphone with their USB DAC, for example. Not nowadays.

I've seen everything changing and evolving over the years and using surround sound to improve pinpoint location of sounds wasn't one ever.

I attended to my first Cyberathlete Professional League in 2001 and been in touch with pros since then. Real competition. The best performance possible. Ppl play to win 500k USD.

If surround sound in games had any advantage, even placebo advantage, pro players would be using it. And, again, no one is. No one ever in all versions of Counter-Strike I can assure you.

That's my help and that's it. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone anymore. I see that there's a huge gap between what we expect from gaming, so I understand you guys.

I think all Pro and Semi-Pro players would get nearly the same results without any sound enabled. They simply rely on their super fast reflexes and on their trained knowledge of the maps. For non Pros like me the use of headphone surround adds to the immersion in the game and to the results. But when some Pro players show up in a lobby, I needs to leave, no chance. But remember 99% of the HeadFi community members are no Pro Players for sure. So this discussion is not very useful here. Have fun instead.

 

[Bansaku]

 For non Pros like me the use of headphone surround adds to the immersion in the game and to the results. But remember 99% of the HeadFi community members are no Pro Players for sure. So this discussion is not very useful here. Have fun instead.

 
Yup! For me, it's not about pin-pointing an enemy's location, it's about total immersion! That's why I still use my HD 598 exclusively for gaming, and why Head-fiers will enjoy pretty much any Sennheiser headset. Hate to say it, but I find Sennheisers overall perform much better with movies and games than they do with modern recorded music!
 

 

[sneak310]

I think all Pro and Semi-Pro players would get nearly the same results without any sound enabled. They simply rely on their super fast reflexes and on their trained knowledge of the maps. For non Pros like me the use of headphone surround adds to the immersion in the game and to the results. But when some Pro players show up in a lobby, I needs to leave, no chance. But remember 99% of the HeadFi community members are no Pro Players for sure. So this discussion is not very useful here. Have fun instead.

 
It is useful here as the original point which was a comparison between this and the PC360 which is practically the same headset without the emulated surround. The original point was that stereo is better for a competitive edge. What I was thinking the first time this topic got active regarding this was exactly what you said.. most of the people here don't competitively play shooters so it's like I'm coming here giving them first-hand experience and they are all arguing. It's not like I came here to argue about some intricate detail of audio formats or headphones when that's what everyone here is into.
 
 
@mefxes: I don't consider CS/BF skilled shooters but I'll give props to old Quake/UE games such as Wolfenstein: ET and Urban Terror because these are a true test of skills and CS is an extremely easy bore fest for people who think it's "very difficult and high skill" just because it's popular.. It's basically a matter of knowing how the weapons work and that's about it when comparing it to something like ET. In ET you need to know all the things you do in CS but actually have immensely more skill. Your settings and tweaks that you were talking about matter so much more in games like these because they were an actual extreme challenge in comparison. That's why ET players move on to shooters and dominate them (like overwatch which is admittedly extremely easy and Dirty Bomb and other competitive games that aren't even shooters). ET/quake players from years ago I am willing to bet are some of the top shooter players in the world. I've seen first-hand the huge difference in all these players in CS and players in quake.
 
I 100% agree with you on the history of tweaking everything to your advantage and everyone relying on stereo because it's better. It's not like those silly people who think that using 800x600 on their 16:9 monitor is giving them an advantage (an actual placebo at the very least in games that allow you to adjust FOV since I know some people use the excuse of poor vision). It's not those silly people who don't have a clue about mice and go buy a Naga and think that it has an amazing sensor when all experienced FPS gamers and mouse enthusiasts are aware the PLN sensors are some of the worst out there. I've personally done a lot of those tweak attempts to try to squeeze every bit of performance and extensively tested emulated surround in that journey, along with several of my friends. Everyone came to the same conclusion (in ET) besides the really bad pubbers here and there who experience placebo. The actual good players all relied on stereo.
 
No doubt this is a great headset if it's following in the footsteps of the PC360 and made by a great company but I just dislike emulated surround for competitive play. Also I like that this one is closed (Oops! confused this with the new g4me that has the same color scheme) because the PC360 was open and annoyed me by triggering the mic constantly. I couldn't find a good sensitivity level to where it picks my voice up at a quiet enough loudness but doesn't trigger the mic when I turn the headphones up. Not denying the advantage of an open headphone but it wasn't worth it with the mic that close in my opinion.

 

[rudyae86]

   
Yes, I've read.

I'm just showing you that your line applies to you so you shouldn't say something like that and then throw opinions and no "proof" at all. It's nonsense.
 
I understand your view. I understand different views of the same matter and I respect you and everybody else.
 
But my little grain here was clear: Linking surround sound to performance in FPS games simply isn't truth.
 
And the "proof" is that in more than 15 years in fps competitive gaming around the world not even once I knew or heard about pro players using anything different than stereo.
 
We are talking about lots of money in sponsorship and prizes ppl try to win, where every little edge is tried and used if works. I could list a lot of different tweaks we learned about every aspect of setting up everything to the best performance possible over these years starting in Quake 3, going to Counter-Strike, then CSS and now CS:GO. And none concerns surround sound.
 
 - Ppl tried and learned about anything hardware related 
 - Ppl tried and learned about mice, even overclocking mice
 - Ppl tried and learned about monitors, even overclocking monitors, using different resolutions, distorted colors and res
 - Ppl tried and learned about keyboards, ghosting, mechanical
 - Ppl tried and learned about game cvars
 - Ppl tried and learned about enhancement drugs
 - Ppl tried and learned about cheats
 - Ppl tried and learned about sound, of course, software and harware related. Years ago every player had his headphone with their USB DAC, for example. Not nowadays.
 
I've seen everything changing and evolving over the years and using surround sound to improve pinpoint location of sounds wasn't one ever.
 
I attended to my first Cyberathlete Professional League in 2001 and been in touch with pros since then. Real competition. The best performance possible. Ppl play to win 500k USD.
 
If surround sound in games had any advantage, even placebo advantage, pro players would be using it. And, again, no one is. No one ever in all versions of Counter-Strike I can assure you.
 
That's my help and that's it. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone anymore. I see that there's a huge gap between what we expect from gaming, so I understand you guys.

Well you see...it only seems you read what you wanted to read because I never said emulated surround sound will definitely give you a competitive edge....I simply said that if anything, out of just some technological point in terms of audio, emulated surround sound could help you get out of some random creeper trying to kill you from behind or lead you to an enemy and maybe....just maybe get you an additional 2 or 3 kills to your score in a round. I say maybe because regardless of where you meet your enemy or if you are behind me, you still have to rely on your reflexes and spot on accuracy to take down the player.
 
But yes, I to do know that no Pro player uses what a lot of us use in terms of emulated surround sound. I don't have to be a Pro player to know that, so don't make it seem that just because you are a Pro player, the rest of us don't know about what they use and what they don't.
 
Also, most of what you said is true, I have been PC gaming since 2001 myself, competitively....not as a Pro but as a casual gamer. I game back in 2001 with the crappiest PC and video card at 25 to 30fps, old school mouse, cheapo keyboard that had some keys get stuck once in a while (especially the dam shift key) and on 56k....and somehow, I would be doing pretty good against others that had broadband that had pings under the 80s while I was at the 200s. But over the years and as I got older, when I turned 18 and got my first job, I started upgrading stuff and little by little, without really looking to see if hardware would improve my game, I would buy myself a better keyboard, a better mouse, used the same monitor, bought a better graphics card....later on bought a better PC (didn't really build one until years later) and a pair of headphones from logitech that I though were decent and provided me good amount of bass...I wasn't really into audio then.
 
But because of these upgrades, I know for a fact, and as proof that the advancement of how technology has progressed and changed what we know of gaming....it has made me a better player to an extent.
 
Did it change my whole gaming experience? It sure did
Did I look at the same game the same way I did before? (considering that everyone knows that 30fps <60fps) of course I saw the same game in a different way
What about audio, did that change the way I game? It did, because before, I would keep the audio settings set to low and everything sound muffled and quality suffered but then when changing settings to High, it obviously showed the difference in immersion and distinguishing sounds...and it some way, it did help me be a better player.
 
But back then, even if I was a competitive player just hitting up random servers and owning just to leave a mark, there was always times where I would get taken down from behind...almost every single round there was a few What moments and wondered how I didn't notice that enemy from behind or to one of my sides, something was wrong I would say.
 
And like you said, I started testing different things that people have already tried to improve their skills in a game. From overclocking monitors, to adjusting DPI settings and sensitivity settings, blah blah blah. But that wasn't the problem for me. My awareness was top notch at that time and well, it always bothered me as to why I was always getting killed by some random dude I couldn't see. And that problem bug me until around 2013, when I came upon MLE's gaming thread and that's how I starting researching more and more about emulated surround sound.
 
Funny things is I was just a lurker in these forums...I didn't create an account because I knew there was going to be a lot of people telling me bogus things, random things, lead me off into something else etc...I had to do my own research but still take into account what everyone else has said, negative and positive, about emulated surround sound.
 
So to keep it short, once I had figured out what I wanted and what to do, I had my first taste of emulated surround sound in 2014 and that forever changed my whole gaming experience. As of today, its hard for me to go back to Stereo unless the game is purely only has Stereo audio. But for your typical FPS games out there, most of them do have a 5.1 or 7.1 setting in game, I use it there to get what I want to hear.
 
From then on, hearing rear sound cues has helped me get out of situations...not saying that it was 100% accurate or that 100% of the time I was saved by emulated surround sound but there was instances where I will get out of a situation because I heard something coming from the rear.
 
You could say Stereo can do the same thing but that really depends on the developers on how they really implement the audio into the game, and even if they did, the panning of Stereo in several games really sounds a bit weird sometimes, maybe its because I have gotten use to emulated surround sound but there are some things that confuse me sometimes when I game in Stereo of which would be too long to explain.
 
But emulated surround sound does and has changed my gaming experience overall. Whether it actually gives me 2 or 3 more kills in every match or keeps me from dying 100% of the time, it is still very debatable for many and I wont argue about that because it could be pure luck or coincidence but by just changing the gaming experience, I know for sure that in some way or another, mentally  or physically or both, skill wise, it can improve up to an extent.....no you will not be a GOD in CS or BF or Overwatch.....no you are not going to impress the ladies either with that.
 
 
But do know for a fact, that some hardware and software can in some way help you...even if it's a .000000001% success rate of giving you 1 more kill, it's going to work and that is still is something to consider when it comes to losing or winning a match. And as a Pro player you should know this very well. One mistake and its all gone.
 
I can see where you come from and how a lot of this really gets to you with the misinformation that is going around.
 
But I repeat myself, I am not saying that emulated surround sound will make you into a better player or give you a huge edge or that it will make you into a pro etc.
 
I do however say that it does slightly...small....a little bit...a teeny bit....give you a certain edge in gaming, especially FPS because it really comes down to the player and on top of other variables.
 
We have come a long way from what the old gaming hardware or PC hardware in general has come from. Input lag is becoming so low we can't really see it or feel it anymore (monitors we can still tell, especially below 144hz) but there are still some improvements that can be made in terms of keyboard's input lag and of course, audio...there is still some lag when it comes to audio.
 
The thing is.....that the improvements that we will see in those pieces of hardware and software, can only be seen in a test lab and on paper. And in some way, it will in fact affect your gaming (probably just taking down a CS GO player 2ms faster than before, if that.) but when you bring in all those numbers together, you get a bigger picture from how much input lag we have reduced over the years in the hardware and software we use, it all adds up....well takes out input lag and we get the results.
 
My proof? Whether you take my personal opinions and personal experience as proof, that will tell me you understand and have an open mind about a possible new way of experiencing gaming.
 
Your proof is simply your experience as well.
 
We didn't show proof of lab tests or pro players using emulated surround sound and stereo to see if it made a difference or not becase....well no one has made one yet.
 
And you as a Pro player have the more reason to push such study if you want to back up your statement.
 
or else your proof and my proof will always be deemed just jibberish lol
 
EDIT: I may have typed some mistakes but I'm running on 4 hours of sleep. My eyes are  hurting from starting at the screen too much....and I need more sleep. So if there is something that doesn't make sense, I will more than happily answer any confusions..

 

[mefxes]

I think all Pro and Semi-Pro players would get nearly the same results without any sound enabled. They simply rely on their super fast reflexes and on their trained knowledge of the maps. For non Pros like me the use of headphone surround adds to the immersion in the game and to the results. But when some Pro players show up in a lobby, I needs to leave, no chance. But remember 99% of the HeadFi community members are no Pro Players for sure. So this discussion is not very useful here. Have fun instead.

 
That's wrong assumption. Reflexes, or in fact, reaction, isn't reliable. Pros rely on crosshair placement. Reaction is a correction of a mistake. It's not the way to go.
 
And correct crosshair placement is related to awareness about the game, in wich sound is essential. No pro player could even think about playing without sound. Stereo sound.
 
 

   
It is useful here as the original point which was a comparison between this and the PC360 which is practically the same headset without the emulated surround. The original point was that stereo is better for a competitive edge. What I was thinking the first time this topic got active regarding this was exactly what you said.. most of the people here don't competitively play shooters so it's like I'm coming here giving them first-hand experience and they are all arguing. It's not like I came here to argue about some intricate detail of audio formats or headphones when that's what everyone here is into.
 
 
@mefxes: I don't consider CS/BF skilled shooters but I'll give props to old Quake/UE games such as Wolfenstein: ET and Urban Terror because these are a true test of skills and CS is an extremely easy bore fest for people who think it's "very difficult and high skill" just because it's popular.. It's basically a matter of knowing how the weapons work and that's about it when comparing it to something like ET. In ET you need to know all the things you do in CS but actually have immensely more skill. Your settings and tweaks that you were talking about matter so much more in games like these because they were an actual extreme challenge in comparison. That's why ET players move on to shooters and dominate them (like overwatch which is admittedly extremely easy and Dirty Bomb and other competitive games that aren't even shooters). ET/quake players from years ago I am willing to bet are some of the top shooter players in the world. I've seen first-hand the huge difference in all these players in CS and players in quake.
 
I 100% agree with you on the history of tweaking everything to your advantage and everyone relying on stereo because it's better. It's not like those silly people who think that using 800x600 on their 16:9 monitor is giving them an advantage (an actual placebo at the very least in games that allow you to adjust FOV since I know some people use the excuse of poor vision). It's not those silly people who don't have a clue about mice and go buy a Naga and think that it has an amazing sensor when all experienced FPS gamers and mouse enthusiasts are aware the PLN sensors are some of the worst out there. I've personally done a lot of those tweak attempts to try to squeeze every bit of performance and extensively tested emulated surround in that journey, along with several of my friends. Everyone came to the same conclusion (in ET) besides the really bad pubbers here and there who experience placebo. The actual good players all relied on stereo.
 
No doubt this is a great headset if it's following in the footsteps of the PC360 and made by a great company but I just dislike emulated surround for competitive play. Also I like that this one is closed (Oops! confused this with the new g4me that has the same color scheme) because the PC360 was open and annoyed me by triggering the mic constantly. I couldn't find a good sensitivity level to where it picks my voice up at a quiet enough loudness but doesn't trigger the mic when I turn the headphones up. Not denying the advantage of an open headphone but it wasn't worth it with the mic that close in my opinion.

 
I just can't agree when you evaluate the skill in these games since there are different kinds of skill. It's almost nonsense when you say there's no skill in a kind of game where you kill ppl with one shot if have the skill to do so. Even if you think CS is slow paced, you still need to hit your shot faster otherwise, you're dead. The only other playable game where I see this kind of skill is Q3UT or AQ2. Ppl from games like Q3A, Warsaw have other kind of skill and most of the time don't succeed or impress playing CS, like Fatal1ty. 
 

   
Your proof is simply your experience as well.

 
Sorry, I needed to quote only that part because makes no sense at all saying that my proof is my experience when in fact what I'm sayin is observation about pro players over many years. It's not my experience. It's their experience trying to be the best to earn championships and money in competitive gaming.
 
And to understand that, maybe you need to understand how (e)sports evolve. Someone finds something, a technique improvement, a gear, whatever, and starts using it. If that's good it will show in results and other atheletes start using the same. In no time everybody is using the same because that's advantage, that's good. If it's not good, results will show and no one will use.
 
So the same way no pro player uses 60hz screens, no pro player uses vsync, no pro player uses anything different than stereo. And that's for a reason.
 
Immersion isn't performance.
 
And please stop mistaking playing multiplayer by playing competitive. Competitive means prizes, money, it's gaming really taken serious, not "I want to win this internet pug".

 

[sneak310]

Comp games don't require tangible prizes

 

[mefxes]

  Comp games don't require tangible prizes

 
The best players will be where the prizes are.
 
Maybe you should try to set a competition with no prizes to find out the level of players you'll have attending...

 

[sneak310]

   
The best players will be where the prizes are.
 
Maybe you should try to set a competition with no prizes to find out the level of players you'll have attending...

Your opinion of where the best players will be is irrelevant to the matter.
 
I've seen plenty of amazing players in competitions without prizes and that's in ET, arguable the highest skill requirement shooter that exists.

 

[mefxes]

  Your opinion of where the best players will be is irrelevant to the matter.
 
I've seen plenty of amazing players in competitions without prizes and that's in ET, arguable the highest skill requirement shooter that exists.

 
No, it isn't.
 
The best players play for money and will be where money is. Just like any other sport that exists.
 
It's a fact, not an opinion.
 
And if that players where that skilled and CS requires no skill, should be easy for them to go to CS and win piece of cake 1kk USD majors. But that won't happen, never happened.
 
My mates are in Russia right now trying to win a 250k USD competition where the total prize pool is 490k USD. This is where skilled players are.

 

[Bansaku]

   
I've seen plenty of amazing players in competitions without prizes...

 
Quote:

   
The best players play for money and will be where money is....
 
It's a fact, not an opinion.
 

 
Sneak is absolutely right. It matters not if it's sports, music, art, whatever, I have seen "amateurs" (I do it for fun) that perform at a much, much higher level than those who are "professionals" (I do it for money). Just because somebody is getting paid or rewarded with prizes doesn't mean they are the absolute best players!
 
 

 

[mefxes]

   
Sneak is absolutely right. It matters not if it's sports, music, art, whatever, I have seen "amateurs" (I do it for fun) that perform at a much, much higher level than those who are "professionals" (I do it for money). Just because somebody is getting paid or rewarded with prizes doesn't mean they are the absolute best players!
 
 

 
lol
 
I see logic is a huge effort here.
 
Today I learned that competition highlights the worst players and they turn into professionals, get paid to play and be praised by fans while amateurs are better. rofl
 
Just like NBA and random amateur players that are better players than the pros in NBA. Yeah, sure.

 

[rudyae86]

   
lol
 
I see logic is a huge effort here.
 
Today I learned that competition highlights the worst players and they turn into professionals, get paid to play and be praised by fans while amateurs are better. rofl
 
Just like NBA and random amateur players that are better players than the pros in NBA. Yeah, sure.

You sound like someone who likes to be entitled to everything just because the word "Pro" should be looked upon......lol
 
Did you know LeBron James got dunked on at a camp once upon a time?
 
And he isn't the only one to have suffered such event

 

[mefxes]

  Did you know LeBron James got dunked on at a camp once upon a time?
 
And he isn't the only one to have suffered such event

 
And what you learn by that?

 

[Zojokkeli]

If anyone is wondering, these do work with PS4 too. I bought them recently and have been using them for communication with friends on PS4.