[panzerfan]

It's not a 'gimmick'. I have built my entire gaming headphone guide around this 'gimmick', which I assure you transforms your audio experience, be it gaming, movies, or anything with a 5.1/7.1 source.

While you're wondering if a sound is in front or behind you, I'll already to shoot you through the wall bassed on your audio location. For music, or typical stereo sources, no. But for everything else. Hell yes.

Anyone with a 7.1 headphone audio is going to destroy everyone else not using it, even if they are equally skilled.

 
Yep. I totally agree. The only caveat to this is that headphones that stuff a bunch of drivers and market themselves as 7.1 solution are all dismal failures. 
(Read your guide btw)

 

[sneak310]

 
It really depends.
 
As for me, I'm using CMSS-3D (Creative Gamer X-Fi sound card) for all games and find it better than normal stereo.
Take Overwatch, I specifically tested "native" sound (actually it uses Dolby Atmos HRTF), and CMSS-3D offered better positioning.
Although I'm not that much of a competitive gamer.
 
It is highly individual. Some people prefer "native" stereo sound, some prefer Creative solutions, others go for Dolby.
Ceratin headphones and DAC/amp's probably pair better with certain technologies.
There are many videos on U-tube comparing different HRTF's, you might want to check those with your gear.
 
What you get with 373D would probably equal to normal "Dolby Headphone" (with ASUS Xonar sound cards), but no additional sound card required.

 
Doesn't really depend.. The issue here is we're using 2 (large) drivers to try to deliver the sounds of 8 speakers. Next up we're talking about headphones, which keep the sound in your ear and the sounds bounce around in there. Normally in a surround setup the distance of the speakers, placement of the speakers and volume all matter. You can't achieve true surround sound in headphones, even if it has multiple drivers in each side. After thorough testing it's clear that sounds coming from the offset front of you are inaccurately placed with "7.1" because it's adding in lower volume sounds and making it sound like it's coming from other "channels" to create the illusion of surround sound. So what I'm saying is, let's say you have 2 stacks of boxes in front of you in a shooter game and someone is standing behind one of them making a noise. With "7.1" you can't pinpoint where that player is consistently, with 2 channel you can. Being a player who played the most difficult shooter of the past decade, where every little thing adds up and matters to help boost your skill I've tested all kinds of things regarding sound as well as friends and everyone has come to the same conclusion besides the bad players who are experiencing placebo. The bottom line is it's a technical impossibility to deliver actual surround sound in headphones and the sound is more accurate as 2 ch stereo. 
 

It's not a 'gimmick'. I have built my entire gaming headphone guide around this 'gimmick', which I assure you transforms your audio experience, be it gaming, movies, or anything with a 5.1/7.1 source.

While you're wondering if a sound is in front or behind you, I'll already to shoot you through the wall bassed on your audio location. For music, or typical stereo sources, no. But for everything else. Hell yes.

Anyone with a 7.1 headphone audio is going to destroy everyone else not using it, even if they are equally skilled.

 
Just because you made a headphone guide doesn't justify your opinion that it isn't a gimmick. I'm only referring to positional audio accuracy in FPS games.
 
Yes, it's slightly easier to tell if someone is in front of or behind you with "7.1". However, the issue here is that it's much more important to have the advantages of 2 channel sound for the rest of the gameplay and if you're positioning yourself correctly you won't have people behind you constantly anyways. Most of the time players are going to be someone in a wide arc in front of you, not behind you. If people are always backraging you then your problem isn't audio, but rather gamesense.
 
The only people I've ever seen say they like "7.1" headphones are low---- pub players. All the higher skilled players use stereo headphones, not speakers or emulated surround.
 
I've seemed to notice a lot of this misinformation being passed around between players who play games like COD, CS and BF. What's unfortunate is these people often think these games are difficult and have a high skill requirement to begin with, then go out trying to buy their way to success with gimmicks like "7.1".
 
I guess I could admit that there could be a possibility that everyone from ET who has tested this just happened to have "crappy emulated surround" and that better ones exist but this doesn't change the fact it's impossible and doesn't really make sense at the core.
 
The final issue with the whole argument is that some people are just stubborn and unwilling to open their minds, which I've seen with mice as well. People who swear by mouse acceleration (or smoothing) and insanely high DPIs and sensitivities. No matter what you tell some people, they won't accept the facts. Then when it comes to audio there's the obvious subjectiveness that effects the conversations even more and makes it more difficult to argue. Atleast with mice we can say definitively that acceleration is bad, and people who argue can just be wrong.

 

[panzerfan]

   
Doesn't really depend.. The issue here is we're using 2 (large) drivers to try to deliver the sounds of 8 speakers. Next up we're talking about headphones, which keep the sound in your ear and the sounds bounce around in there. Normally in a surround setup the distance of the speakers, placement of the speakers and volume all matter. You can't achieve true surround sound in headphones, even if it has multiple drivers in each side. After thorough testing it's clear that sounds coming from the offset front of you are inaccurately placed with "7.1" because it's adding in lower volume sounds and making it sound like it's coming from other "channels" to create the illusion of surround sound. So what I'm saying is, let's say you have 2 stacks of boxes in front of you in a shooter game and someone is standing behind one of them making a noise. With "7.1" you can't pinpoint where that player is consistently, with 2 channel you can. Being a player who played the most difficult shooter of the past decade, where every little thing adds up and matters to help boost your skill I've tested all kinds of things regarding sound as well as friends and everyone has come to the same conclusion besides the bad players who are experiencing placebo. The bottom line is it's a technical impossibility to deliver actual surround sound in headphones and the sound is more accurate as 2 ch stereo. 
 
 
Just because you made a headphone guide doesn't justify your opinion that it isn't a gimmick. I'm only referring to positional audio accuracy in FPS games.
 
Yes, it's slightly easier to tell if someone is in front of or behind you with "7.1". However, the issue here is that it's much more important to have the advantages of 2 channel sound for the rest of the gameplay and if you're positioning yourself correctly you won't have people behind you constantly anyways. Most of the time players are going to be someone in a wide arc in front of you, not behind you. If people are always backraging you then your problem isn't audio, but rather gamesense.
 
The only people I've ever seen say they like "7.1" headphones are low---- pub players. All the higher skilled players use stereo headphones, not speakers or emulated surround.
 
I've seemed to notice a lot of this misinformation being passed around between players who play games like COD, CS and BF. What's unfortunate is these people often think these games are difficult and have a high skill requirement to begin with, then go out trying to buy their way to success with gimmicks like "7.1".
 
I guess I could admit that there could be a possibility that everyone from ET who has tested this just happened to have "crappy emulated surround" and that better ones exist but this doesn't change the fact it's impossible and doesn't really make sense at the core.
 
The final issue with the whole argument is that some people are just stubborn and unwilling to open their minds, which I've seen with mice as well. People who swear by mouse acceleration (or smoothing) and insanely high DPIs and sensitivities. No matter what you tell some people, they won't accept the facts. Then when it comes to audio there's the obvious subjectiveness that effects the conversations even more and makes it more difficult to argue. Atleast with mice we can say definitively that acceleration is bad, and people who argue can just be wrong.

 
Doesn't really depend? Virtual surround sound implementation is a completely different beast to sticking a bunch of drivers and expect headphones to work as they are nearfield speakers in 5.1 arrangement, when the likes of balanced armature crossover can only give you a stereo rendering. 
Dolby headphone, THX TruStudio, Razer, CMSS-3D and others do actually have merit.
I am going to tell you right now that it is impossible to get 3D positioning through the likes of IEM without those virtual solutions. 

 

[sneak310]

   
Doesn't really depend? Virtual surround sound implementation is a completely different beast to sticking a bunch of drivers and expect headphones to work as they are nearfield speakers in 5.1 arrangement, when the likes of balanced armature crossover can only give you a stereo rendering. 
Dolby headphone, THX TruStudio, Razer, CMSS-3D and others do actually have merit.
I am going to tell you right now that it is impossible to get 3D positioning through the likes of IEM without those virtual solutions. 

 
Well yeah, I never disputed that virtual audio isn't possible without virtual solutions. 

 

[3stun]

It's not a 'gimmick'. I have built my entire gaming headphone guide around this 'gimmick', which I assure you transforms your audio experience, be it gaming, movies, or anything with a 5.1/7.1 source.

While you're wondering if a sound is in front or behind you, I'll already to shoot you through the wall bassed on your audio location. For music, or typical stereo sources, no. But for everything else. Hell yes.

Anyone with a 7.1 headphone audio is going to destroy everyone else not using it, even if they are equally skilled.

 
By "7.1 HP audio", do you mean REAL 7.1 headphones with 8 dedicated speakers inside, or just "emulated surround sound" for normal stereo-headphones, like Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, etc. ?
 
sneak310, people (at least most of us) have only 2 ears, no matter how many speakers you got in your multi-channel system.
So - in theory - it is possible to calculate how sound travels from many speakers to your ears, and then emulate it with only 2 speakers - directly at your ears.
The question is how close to reality this emulation can get, and how it works with certain setup for certain person (every one of us hears differently, after all).
That's why different people prefer different algorythms.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Doesn't really depend.. The issue here is we're using 2 (large) drivers to try to deliver the sounds of 8 speakers. Next up we're talking about headphones, which keep the sound in your ear and the sounds bounce around in there. Normally in a surround setup the distance of the speakers, placement of the speakers and volume all matter. You can't achieve true surround sound in headphones, even if it has multiple drivers in each side. After thorough testing it's clear that sounds coming from the offset front of you are inaccurately placed with "7.1" because it's adding in lower volume sounds and making it sound like it's coming from other "channels" to create the illusion of surround sound. So what I'm saying is, let's say you have 2 stacks of boxes in front of you in a shooter game and someone is standing behind one of them making a noise. With "7.1" you can't pinpoint where that player is consistently, with 2 channel you can. Being a player who played the most difficult shooter of the past decade, where every little thing adds up and matters to help boost your skill I've tested all kinds of things regarding sound as well as friends and everyone has come to the same conclusion besides the bad players who are experiencing placebo. The bottom line is it's a technical impossibility to deliver actual surround sound in headphones and the sound is more accurate as 2 ch stereo. 


Just because you made a headphone guide doesn't justify your opinion that it isn't a gimmick. I'm only referring to positional audio accuracy in FPS games.

Yes, it's slightly easier to tell if someone is in front of or behind you with "7.1". However, the issue here is that it's much more important to have the advantages of 2 channel sound for the rest of the gameplay and if you're positioning yourself correctly you won't have people behind you constantly anyways. Most of the time players are going to be someone in a wide arc in front of you, not behind you. If people are always backraging you then your problem isn't audio, but rather gamesense.

The only people I've ever seen say they like "7.1" headphones are low---- pub players. All the higher skilled players use stereo headphones, not speakers or emulated surround.

I've seemed to notice a lot of this misinformation being passed around between players who play games like COD, CS and BF. What's unfortunate is these people often think these games are difficult and have a high skill requirement to begin with, then go out trying to buy their way to success with gimmicks like "7.1".

I guess I could admit that there could be a possibility that everyone from ET who has tested this just happened to have "crappy emulated surround" and that better ones exist but this doesn't change the fact it's impossible and doesn't really make sense at the core.

The final issue with the whole argument is that some people are just stubborn and unwilling to open their minds, which I've seen with mice as well. People who swear by mouse acceleration (or smoothing) and insanely high DPIs and sensitivities. No matter what you tell some people, they won't accept the facts. Then when it comes to audio there's the obvious subjectiveness that effects the conversations even more and makes it more difficult to argue. Atleast with mice we can say definitively that acceleration is bad, and people who argue can just be wrong.

Yeah, it's in that reference to POSITIONAL AUDIO ACCURACY that I say those virtual 7.1 solutions on headphones have an almost wallhack ability to discern where sounds are coming fro. Whereas in stereo you gain a general direction of "oh it's on my left/right", a good virtual surround dsp, well tell also CLEARLY tell you if it's in front or behind you. That takes a few moments longer to discern in plain stereo by comparison. A moment too late/you're dead.

All 'higher skilled players' use stereo, because that's all they know/experienced or care to ever try. It's a stupid, old argument. "Wah, it sounds werid, I'm going back to stereo". That is the usual comment from these try hards. But anyone, ANYONE who has even bothered giving virtual surround a chance can and will tell you how absurd these statements are. Give yourself a week with a good virtual surround headphone setup, and then go back and tell me that stereo is better.

I call it denial. It's like buying a 4KTV and going back to an SD tube. You instantly lose a whole layer of sound and then some.

2D audio for a 3D world better than 3D audio in a 3D world? Yeah. SUUUUUURE, buddy. That makes sense in absolutely nowhere.

I have been called a cheater an endless amount of times online. All thanks to me being able to tell exactly where people were, which was something not possible in stereo.

Virtual surround has picked up steam all these years because, guess what? IT WORKS.

I like how you're pathetically trying to act like my way of gaming is the issue.

Because people have never ever come up behind you in a shooter ever, where you can be surrounded by random spawn points. Please, Mr. MLG.

 

[sneak310]

   
By "7.1 HP audio", do you mean REAL 7.1 headphones with 8 dedicated speakers inside, or just "emulated surround sound" for normal stereo-headphones, like Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, etc. ?
 
sneak310, people (at least most of us) have only 2 ears, no matter how many speakers you got in your multi-channel system.
So - in theory - it is possible to calculate how sound travels from many speakers to your ears, and then emulate it with only 2 speakers - directly at your ears.
The question is how close to reality this emulation can get, and how it works with certain setup for certain person (every one of us hears differently, after all).
That's why different people prefer different algorythms.

Well sure it's possible to emulate it, but that doesn't change the fact headphones are advertised as a "7.1 channel surround sound headset" rather than "emulated 7.1 surround headset". In addition to this as far as what's "better competitively" I can only speak on my own tests as well as tests from a wide handful of people I've talked about with this.
 
 

Yeah, it's in that reference to POSITIONAL AUDIO ACCURACY that I say those virtual 7.1 solutions on headphones have an almost wallhack ability to discern where sounds are coming fro. Whereas in stereo you gain a general direction of "oh it's on my left/right", a good virtual surround dsp, well tell also CLEARLY tell you if it's in front or behind you. That takes a few moments longer to discern in plain stereo by comparison. A moment too late/you're dead.

All 'higher skilled players' use stereo, because that's all they know/experienced or care to ever try. It's a stupid, old argument. "Wah, it sounds werid, I'm going back to stereo". That is the usual comment from these try hards. But anyone, ANYONE who has even bothered giving virtual surround a chance can and will tell you how absurd these statements are. Give yourself a week with a good virtual surround headphone setup, and then go back and tell me that stereo is better.

I call it denial. It's like buying a 4KTV and going back to an SD tube. You instantly lose a whole layer of sound and then some.

2D audio for a 3D world better than 3D audio in a 3D world? Yeah. SUUUUUURE, buddy. That makes sense in absolutely nowhere.

I have been called a cheater an endless amount of times online. All thanks to me being able to tell exactly where people were, which was something not possible in stereo.

Virtual surround has picked up steam all these years because, guess what? IT WORKS.

I like how you're pathetically trying to act like my way of gaming is the issue.

Because people have never ever come up behind you in a shooter ever, where you can be surrounded by random spawn points. Please, Mr. MLG.

 
Once again I disagree with emulated surround being better for enemy detection but the fact remains that if you're being attacked from behind constantly you need to work on gamesense instead of mess with your audio setup.
 
I'm familiar with people being stuck in old ways and unwilling to move on, like those people who play at 800x600 without any actual benefit to doing so (quite the opposite considering most people are on LCDs). I don't consider their opinions valid because I know they're from a place of bias to the side of being unwilling to change or experiment.
 
Well you call what I'm saying denial, then I call what you're saying denial too. Denial that 2 channel is better than emulated 7.1 Wow, that was easy. I would use this if my argument wasn't working out for me too.
 
The 3D part of video games is the video, not the audio and you can't just say "because the game world is 3D that means 3D audio is automatically better". The term "3D audio" is more of a marketing name anyways because it's only an effect, not true surround. What you're saying is essentially like saying "the Bible is true because people/earth exist".
 
I've been called a cheater too, big deal. People often get called cheaters who don't even do suspicious things or aren't even very good players. There are players who aren't used to seeing such skill and immediately ignore the possibility that someone is that skilled. Also, it's NOT impossible with stereo. As a person who has played Enemy Territory for 12 years I can confirm without a doubt that people have wondered how I know where they are while I sit here with stereo headphones and laugh.
 
Many things pick up steam but that isn't grounds for validation alone (religion, BLM, Slimfast, Atkins Diet, Turtle Beach, much of the modern day radio music).
 
I'm not acting like anything but simply stating the fact that if someone is constantly being backraged they need to learn the map and the game better in order to be in the right place at the right time. This is a common mistake I see many players making in other shooters (just like aiming at the ground when they run around) and a very hard one to correct.
 
I didn't say anything about people never coming up behind you. I recommend if you can't comprehend English to quit while you're ahead. Otherwise, you may want to re-read my post.

 

[k4rstar]

Other than the obvious 7.1 surround dongle; what are the key differences if any between the PC373D and the Game One/Zero?

 

[SirMagnificat]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but Dolby Headphones and other virtual surround processors do provide a noticeable improvement in spatial positioning. As Mad Lust noted, it's particularly obvious for sounds behind you. You don't need 5 or 7 speakers to achieve this – after all, you only have 2 ears. Listen to this with headphones on:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IXm6SuUigI
 
Virtual surround processors work by mathematically modeling the acoustics at your ears for a given room and speaker layout. Dolby engineers probably spent a significant amount of time playing 5.1 recordings over a reference speaker setup and recording it with a binaural microphone, like in the video above. By playing test tones through each channel, they can then model how 5.1 recordings should sound directly next to your ears.

 

[sneak310]

I've listened to that before.
 
Regardless of us having only 2 ears, the sounds work differently in headphones because of the way sound bounces off things. I didn't say anything about 5.1 recordings, I'm talking about emulated surround in headphones/headsets.

 

[SirMagnificat]

Did you listen to the link I posted? Because if you did, there's no way you'd believe that headphones aren't sufficient for convincing surround sound.
 

 Regardless of us having only 2 ears, the sounds work differently in headphones because of the way sound bounces off things.

 
"The way sound bounces off things" is exactly what Dolby Headphones simulates. It's accounting for how each channel interacts with the walls and eventually ends up at your ears.
 

 didn't say anything about 5.1 recordings, I'm talking about emulated surround in headphones/headsets.

 
You can only emulate surround sound using Dolby Headphones with a 5.1 source. If you're using it with a 2 channel source, then it will try to emulate a 2 speaker setup which is very different.

 

[sneak310]

 

I didn't say headphones aren't sufficient for convincing surround sound I said in competitive shooters stereo headphones are more efficient than emulated surround sound.
 
Walls and enclosed objects directly around your ears aren't the same thing.
 
Nobody was ever arguing source audio being in 5.1. Seemed a little obvious to me that we were talking about upmixing

 

[rudyae86]

  I didn't say headphones aren't sufficient for convincing surround sound I said in competitive shooters stereo headphones are more efficient than emulated surround sound.

The real question is, do you have proof of this to back up your claims?
 
I use to doubt about Emulated Surround Sound. When I first came upon MLE's guide, I wasn't sure what was going on or let alone, made any sense of what he was saying in his guide lol.
 
To keep it small, I have played competitively in some games over the years, specially early COD games and BF games and I played in plain old Stereo. It always sounded great to me but the limit of that left and right panning left me wanting more. I couldn't afford a real 5.1 set up so I had to look for alternatives. So I cam upon MLEs guide and got a Recon3D USB with a Fidelio X1 and MA900 to try and use them on my PC and PS3 at the time.
 
let me tell you that ever since then, I have not stopped using Emulated Surround sound ever since I first started using it. It just makes that much of a difference wether playing competitively or not.
 
Yes, sound quality does degrade for Emulated Surround Sound compared to Stereo but the surround and immersion makes up for that loss of quality.
 
I honestly can't go back to playing games in Stereo mode, unless thats all the game has to offer. I have tested this myself to go back to Stereo and I just cant. The lack of panning quickly from left to right, hearing only at a 180 degree  instead of a 360 was obvious. I tried to go back to Stereo but it gives me limits. I guess at the end what Im really trying to say, is that we all have our preferences and what may work for one person, it may not work for another.
 
Anyways back on topic.....
 
So this headset is pretty much a rebrand of the PC363D......pass.

 

 

[3stun]

  Other than the obvious 7.1 surround dongle; what are the key differences if any between the PC373D and the Game One/Zero?

Game Zero are foldable.
Game Zero have leather (pleather?) ear pads and forehead pad, 373D - velour.
Cable - removable for Game Zero, not so for 373D.
 
Judging from spec differences (SPL - Game Zero 108 dB, 373D 116 dB), different dynamics could be used.
But we need confirmation.
 
Guys, stop trying to convince sneak310.
If he does not believe in HRTF - well, all the better for us when we meet him on the battlefield.
You cannot wake someone who is just pretending to be asleep.

 

[rudyae86]

  Game Zero are foldable.
Game Zero have leather (pleather?) ear pads and forehead pad, 373D - velour.
Cable - removable for Game Zero, not so for 373D.
 
Judging from spec differences (SPL - Game Zero 108 dB, 373D 116 dB), different dynamics could be used.
But we need confirmation.
 
Guys, stop trying to convince sneak310.
If he does not believe in HRTF - well, all the better for us when we meet him on the battlefield.
You cannot wake someone who is just pretending to be asleep.

I think its just the same PC363D Sennheiser has had before just with a new color scheme and usb dongle looks a bit different. Still offers the 7.1 that even the PC363D has.

Yeah, I guess not everyone will or has tried some sort of HRTF to convince them how good it is or how good it can be and how better it will be.

But oh well, they are missing out