Inner | fidelity - Comparing World-Class Headphone

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Quote:

The LCD2 has a very limited soundstage.

 
 
Limited in what way?
 
Depth, height, width, focus, spacing......? 

 

[n3rdling]

Size.  Everybody has a different definition of what constitutes 'limited' and 'very limited' in thier head so it's pointless to argue that.  I agree that it is not 'very limited' when compared to, say, Grados with flats or the DT48.  On the other hand, it is still smaller than most of the headphones in its' price class.  

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Thank you, Tyll -- another phenomenal contribution to the headphone community. My understanding (not my opinion as I have not heard Wadia CDP before, just their DAC) is that the Wadia CDP can be on the warmer side of neutral. Just want to get your thoughts on that. While I recognize the several shortcomings of LCD-2 version 1, I believe those slight shortcomings were exaggerated slightly by the warmer-than-neutral tonality of Wadia player.
I do hear those same shortcomings you mentioned with the Linn Klimax/Beta22, but just slightly (should be even more slightly than your description of "slight"). One area I disagree with your review is the soundstage/imaging. I do not hear any artificial limit to the soundstage of my LCD-2 (version 1); the sound seems to extend far far beyond my reach and at times the sound appears to emanating from distance (of course, all this depending on the music).
Regardless, the real star of the show is 009, which I promised myself one as soon as we get out of this recession.

I wouldn't describe the Wadia as warm, but rather as smooth. I hear what you're saying, but given the performance of the 009, and the limitations of the cans with the same source, I feel pretty comfrtable with waht I heard as coming from the cans and not the source.  I'm also very familiar with that Wadia as I lived with it at HeadRoom for years.
 
Have you heard your LCD-2 up against the HD800? I like the LCD-2 (lots) but I don't think imaging is it's strength; I think the glorious whole is what they do best. The resolving power of the 009 was simply unbelievable. Been a long time since I had such an eye opening experience with a set of cans.
 
@ recession : You may be waiting a long time. Your kidneys still in good shape? You can do without one.
 

 

[chesebert]

I wouldn't describe the Wadia as warm, but rather as smooth. I hear what you're saying, but given the performance of the 009, and the limitations of the cans with the same source, I feel pretty comfrtable with waht I heard as coming from the cans and not the source.  I'm also very familiar with that Wadia as I lived with it at HeadRoom for years.
 
Have you heard your LCD-2 up against the HD800? I like the LCD-2 (lots) but I don't think imaging is it's strength; I think the glorious whole is what they do best. The resolving power of the 009 was simply unbelievable. Been a long time since I had such an eye opening experience with a set of cans.
 
@ recession : You may be waiting a long time. Your kidneys still in good shape? You can do without one.
 

Ok, I think fundamentally we are not hearing any differently. Neither LCD-2 nor HD800 has any boundary to their respective soundstages, but HD800 simply renders that stage and all the instruments with more realism. (ok, HD800 also expands the soundstage quite a bit, which I kinda like on certain non-intimate music). IMO, the real advantages HD800 has over LCD-2 in terms of soundstage are not in its size, width or depth, rather it's the holographic imaging and focus of HD800 that truly stand out.

Addition:

Might want to try a more resolving source, this could remedy LCD-2's slight deficiency in its resolving power. Granted, it's probably cheaper and easier to just get a set of more resolving cans.

 

[K3cT]

Imaging-wise, I think the LCD2 does pretty well in pin-pointing the locations of instruments and in separating individual sounds. Soundstage-wise, I have no problem either with how the LCD2 renders width. 
 
However I think it is how the headphone renders depth that could use some improvement. This aspect is probably where the R2 fixes things up albeit at the cost of sacrificing R1's glorious midrange. 

 

[SP Wild]

I have come to an absolute opinion that the secret to a lot of this "soundstage", "imaging", and "brightness/darkness" issues are revealed in the graph under Isolation: Attenuation of External Sounds VS Frequency.
 
It all goes back to crossfeed...think about it, it is too obvious and too logical.

 

[Icenine2]

It also could be your source or amp that is lacking.
Quote:

The LCD2 has a very limited soundstage.

 

 

[TMoney]

 
Quote:

It also could be your source or amp that is lacking.
 

 
Are you kidding? Clearly you have no idea who you are talking to.
 
You might want to check out his profile before you make a statement like that. N3rdling is practically a head-fi legend.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

@ recession : You may be waiting a long time. Your kidneys still in good shape? You can do without one.

hehe, I was going to post something along those lines. In my situation, the exact opposite reasoning occurred actually. After the quake / tsunami / nuclear nightmare occurred last march, every one in Japan entered a phase of self-restraint out of respect for all those who suffered greatly from the tragedy. No more going out at night, no more spending / shopping, no hanami and so forth. After a while, the sentiment subsided but the mood for spending did not return back (it wasn't really there before the quake anyhow lol , largely due to the moribund economy. I personally was really eager to buy the Stax headphone but decided not to. Then, a coworker of mine, shares his story that he had just spent quite a bit of money on one of his hobbies, not only for his own satisfaction but also because any spending would be good to the economy. Taken from this point of view, I soon changed my mined and purchased the 009 about a week later when stumbling upon a pair at a local store .
 

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

It also could be your source or amp that is lacking.

From my experience, a Balancing Act improves the LCD2's soundstage. But it also does the same for HD800's - kicks it up to Star Trek holo-deck levels. What I'm saying is LCD2 soundstage is similar to Grado's. And Grado's don't do soundstage. 
 

 

[sachu]

everyone has different yardsticks for measuring what sounds best to them. Personally, soundstage on headphones is very low on my list.
 
Tonality, midrange, bass impact, extension followed by detail and imaging is what gets me more and in that order.
 
For soundstaging, move up to a full on planar speaker setup like the Magnepans, Sound labs, Apogees or Martin Logans. Headphones IMO are not meant for that role, unless we start seeing a lot more binaural recordings.
 
 
 

 

[mobbaddict]

Quote:

I have come to an absolute opinion that the secret to a lot of this "soundstage", "imaging", and "brightness/darkness" issues are revealed in the graph under Isolation: Attenuation of External Sounds VS Frequency.
 
It all goes back to crossfeed...think about it, it is too obvious and too logical.

I agree, but crossfeed also depends on leakage.
There's a study that measured acoustic crosstalk from different headphones (read page 7 figures 13-14-15) : http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/25/4/25_276/_article
Notice how the open headphones (Stax Lambda & HD414)  leak in the upper range (and not so much in the lows).
 
As for crossfeed causing more brightness/darkness I'm not sure, SPL from different channels don't add up together do they?

 

[TheWuss]

Quote:

I have come to an absolute opinion that the secret to a lot of this "soundstage", "imaging", and "brightness/darkness" issues are revealed in the graph under Isolation: Attenuation of External Sounds VS Frequency.
 
It all goes back to crossfeed...think about it, it is too obvious and too logical.

hmmmmm....  i want to know more...
 
would this imply that the LCD-2 soundstage better for folks who enjoy their music at louder volumes?
 
 

 

[Icenine2]

I did check it.
 
Quote:

 
 
Are you kidding? Clearly you have no idea who you are talking to.
 
You might want to check out his profile before you make a statement like that. N3rdling is practically a head-fi legend.

 

 

[chesebert]

 
 
Are you kidding? Clearly you have no idea who you are talking to.
 
You might want to check out his profile before you make a statement like that. N3rdling is practically a head-fi legend.

You gotta be kidding me on the "legend" part -- I still remember N3rdling having less than 100 posts; oh time sure flies. N3rdling's headphone collection is pretty legendary, on the other hand.