[DrewVz]

I'd love to understand how it is that different IEMs can render soundstages so differently, what helps them achieve their results and what the limit might be on what you can do with 2 channel music without getting into 'obvious processing' territory (which can rob music of its character and musicality IMO). Is it transients / artefacts in recordings that certain drivers are just able to exploit and render in a crisper way (similar to 'edge enhance' in graphics applications maybe) which elevates them out of a mix and emphasizes their spatial characteristics?

I can only guess, but it seems that you need some pretty fast drivers and in particular superb tuning that differs from the "standard" Harman profile. It seems that Bob is the only one out there willing to tune his IEMs differently than others and he focuses on these types of things (staging, musicality, tonality, a "proper" low end, etc.) that actually SOUND better to your ears rather than just aiming for a perfect looking FR graph.

Having cancelled my Titan preorder, I bit the bullet and picked up a set on ebay.

How in the world did you find one on eBay already? I think they only just reached customers' doors a few weeks ago!

My issue sometimes with a big soundstage is that it can remove the impact of the bass and kick drum through the centre and for things that may be panned hard right or left, can detach them from the music a bit, almost like the image is being distributed or 'stretched' too far. I'm not getting that with the Titans.

I totally agree. I dislike IEMs that stretch the soundstage out unnaturally to the sides to give the impression of a "wide" soundstage. A typical consequence of this is that the stage is too flat and shallow, so when sounds pan from side-to-side they don't give you any room to breathe, it happens right in front of your face. The Titan stage is much broader and evenly spaced, much more natural. And deep. Pretty close to the deepest I've heard. The Titan's range of depth, from behind the head to waaaay out in the distance, is astounding. Again, my guess is that this comes down to the type of hardware used in the IEM and especially the tuning.

 

[Ryokan]

I'd love to understand how it is that different IEMs can render soundstages so differently, what helps them achieve their results and what the limit might be on what you can do with 2 channel music without getting into 'obvious processing' territory (which can rob music of its character and musicality IMO). Is it transients / artefacts in recordings that certain drivers are just able to exploit and render in a crisper way (similar to 'edge enhance' in graphics applications maybe) which elevates them out of a mix and emphasizes their spatial characteristics?

They'd probably be able to tell you in the science forum, which is where I took this (testing audiophile claims and myths):

'If for example we define quality as "fidelity", then that is a property of a sound wave and we can measure it, compare those measurements for the different headphones and objectively/scientifically state which is higher fidelity. However, that won't necessarily tell you much about soundstage, because soundstage is one of those perceptions which is a combination of a number of different sound properties, plus factors unrelated to sound properties. On the other hand, it would tell us a lot about "timbre", because timbre is directly related to a single sound property, frequency response'.

 

[mochill]

Ozar delivered

 

[SynaestheticA]

I'd love to understand how it is that different IEMs can render soundstages so differently, what helps them achieve their results and what the limit might be on what you can do with 2 channel music without getting into 'obvious processing' territory (which can rob music of its character and musicality IMO). Is it transients / artefacts in recordings that certain drivers are just able to exploit and render in a crisper way (similar to 'edge enhance' in graphics applications maybe) which elevates them out of a mix and emphasizes their spatial characteristics?

Having cancelled my Titan preorder, I bit the bullet and picked up a set on ebay. Even out of the box, there is some really nice placement, especially with backing vocals. Listening to Undisclosed Desires by Muse, there is a whispered vocal in the right channel that I never noticed before but it is nicely present on the Titans, again just enough to give a nice spatial effect, and some backing vocals in a Placebo track which had the effect of cascading away from the ear - very cool. Interestingly, listening to Be With Me by VAST and the image is very compressed / congested which is why I asked the question above.

My issue sometimes with a big soundstage is that it can remove the impact of the bass and kick drum through the centre and for things that may be panned hard right or left, can detach them from the music a bit, almost like the image is being distributed or 'stretched' too far. I'm not getting that with the Titans.

The Avalons were my personal favourite IMRs prior so I'm hoping that Titans live up to their potential of being Avalon+ once burnt in.

On the point of artificially enhanced soundstages. It might not be as bad as it sounds on paper

The Nuratrue Pro / Denon PerL Pro has the widest soundstage of any iem I've heard. Possibly more than the Kublai Khan. Almost certainly a result of some kind of Dirac Virtuo' enhancement. But it's amazing, the bass and subbass is also completely unique and most probably some kind of 'digitally enhanced' but it's also one of my favourites I've heard. Soft and wide yet punchy, thick and powerful.

I haven't noticed the soundstage cons you mentioned but after trying shitloads of tws and a few iems soundstage has become the most important factor to me in an iem. I can't listen to anything narrow or 'intimate' so it could be preference but yea

What was my point?

I don't know, but I'll take any little tricks to broaden an iems staging.

As a matter of curiosity though, I'd also love to know how you achieve such a big stage on certain iems, that knowledge should be shared with every manufacturer everywhere so we can stop fvking around with narrow convoluted staging

 

[Mouseman]

On the point of artificially enhanced soundstages. It might not be as bad as it sounds on paper

The Nuratrue Pro / Denon PerL Pro has the widest soundstage of any iem I've heard. Possibly more than the Kublai Khan. Almost certainly a result of some kind of Dirac Virtuo' enhancement. But it's amazing, the bass and subbass is also completely unique and most probably some kind of 'digitally enhanced' but it's also one of my favourites I've heard. Soft and wide yet punchy, thick and powerful.

I haven't noticed the soundstage cons you mentioned but after trying shitloads of tws and a few iems soundstage has become the most important factor to me in an iem. I can't listen to anything narrow or 'intimate' so it could be preference but yea

What was my point?

I don't know, but I'll take any little tricks to broaden an iems staging.

As a matter of curiosity though, I'd also love to know how you achieve such a big stage on certain iems, that knowledge should be shared with every manufacturer everywhere so we can stop fvking around with narrow convoluted staging

The HiBy DAPs also have a plugin for soundstage, and it's pretty brilliant. I also don't like narrow presentation and have a few IEMs that aren't great (not IMRs). The HiBy can bump them out without making it sound artificial, so I appreciate that a lot. It would be great if they were built that way in the first place, but this is the next best thing.

 

[mekap]

Lol I'm pretty sure that nobody knows how the filter colors work with each other. For example, you can't just switch top filters from green to blue and expect "better" treble. The FR changes, the bass changes, the tonality changes. You really need to go through almost all the filter combinations if you are truly looking for the best sound for your ears.

I use gold lower and red upper on ACE because it sounds the best. But almost nobody would try gold lowers. Same for Titan, I tried going from red lower to purple in an attempt to slightly reduce the bass, but the entire bass range fell apart and the soundstage collapsed. Switching to grey lower sounded fine, but there was too much treble sharpness, so I had to go with a red upper, but that made the bass too boomy. 4 or 5 combinations later, I finally landed on red lower and green upper and found perfection.

Until recently, I used a black low filter and a magenta high filter, yes, there is a lot of bass with a black filter. I, like you, put a red low filter on the TITAN, but left the magenta high filter, now the sound has become a little less accentuated on the bass. I tried a green upper filter, but it seemed to me that the green filter suppresses high frequencies, the sound becomes not so detailed at high frequencies, hides some elements

 

[457205]

The Event Horizon saga continues.

My EHs were supposed to ship yesterday, but sadly one of my DD units turned out to be faulty. All the other units are shipping to other purchasers so there are no spares and I just have to wait until a replacement can be brought in from wherever they are being made.

Bob went above and beyond with his customer service on this, so no complaints from my end.

Just a bit more waiting.

 

[DrewVz]

I tried a green upper filter, but it seemed to me that the green filter suppresses high frequencies, the sound becomes not so detailed at high frequencies, hides some elements

Indeed, the green takes the edge off a bit in the high end, which to me improves clarity and makes the soundstage more uniform. The purple can restore some of the high end detail slightly, but to me the tradeoff in clarity and soundstage presentation isn't worth it.

 

[curicat]

How do you feel about the craftsmanship (not the form!) of old shells compared to newer ones? When I take halcyon shells in the hand they immediately feel to me like more premium ones, really like the tactile feel of them. Is it just me?

 

[PeacockObscura]

How do you feel about the craftsmanship (not the form!) of old shells compared to newer ones? When I take halcyon shells in the hand they immediately feel to me like more premium ones, really like the tactile feel of them. Is it just me?

I know what you mean the older designs Halcyon, opus Mia, even the BC(23) have a quality that is unmatched in the iem word of generic pseudo custom fit styles. But I do prefer the fit of the new standardised IMR shapes though they do lack in looks.

 

[roygbiv6]

Ordered the Enigma. Let the wait commence. Hopefully they come in time for Christmas (2024).

Could you please describe the sound of E+?

I think Jon's post below described them better than I could. I think a lot is down to them having the best implementation of bone conduction I've heard.

They should rename the IMR Elan + to 'IMR ...And Yet' - Its a fascinating IEM that is a constant contradiction and yet works perfectly o_0

Keeps coming to mind the more I listen

The treble seems to sound very natural and real - and yet
it can sound like the ice clear blue clean purity of the inside of a glacial cave! - Its a unique treble from IMR I assume from the dual BA drivers

The vocals seem very clear and clean and forward in the stage - and yet
the music as a whole sounds wonderfully wholesome and balanced and works together in a balanced sympathetic way

Instruments often are presented with a huge space around each one which makes it easy to go to and enjoy each one and its own unique characteristics - and yet
despite this I often just catch myself relaxing into the music as a whole

The drums can show very fast transients with each hit being delicious to hear - and yet
there is still an overall bass than envelops the music as whole

There is no noticeable sub-bass with normal music - and yet
if the track has sub bass then the rumble is huge, and purrs like a lion being noticeably of a profound and rare quality

In this regard the E+ seems quite warm - and yet
there is such a clean clarity of notes
The E+ can be such ear candy - and yet i

s also effortless to listen to

The 3D holographic soundstage is phenomenal - Its like an audible version of a planetarium. One of the Elan+'s strongest qualities and to some very small degree its only potential problem area as sometimes you just want a slightly more subdued sound that the Ozar for example can give

Fit is perfect for me. You cant really see it but you can feel what feels like a rectangular 'block' on the back of the IEM, I assume designed to give maximum contact with the surface of the ear to maximise the effect of the Bone Conduction

They make ordinary music sound good but give them something that has been skillfully produced and mastered and they audible
leap to another level and really shine. Maybe with some 'hot' CD's that are just created to make a noise to sell they might become fatiguing but I would imagine spending this amount of money on an IEM you are not listening to s**t ?
Anyhoo, Im very much enjoying the Elan+ - ive been lucky with the synergy as they tonaly sound pretty much perfect - superb balance of low/mids/highs. Exceptionally well tuned.
Also, maybe the Elan+ is the 1st IMR in 25+ Ive owned and burned in that haven't needed or shown a huge change before / during burn in. Still going to surpass the magical 550 hour mark as standard

 

[Headphoneprobs]

Thought I'd reflect a little publicly. I have a couple pairs of headphones and have completely ignored them for maybe six to eight months as I dove deeper into IEM-world (which is primarily IMR-world).

Part of the reason for/fascination with the IMR dive has been because of the bass I'm getting out of them and then the treat of really well-executed space and layering I get with some without treble fatigue ...or fear (nb. tried opus mia recently and found it the most congested sounding IMRs I've ever listened which perplexed me given the drivers). In any case, I find it incredibly satisfying - the sound, the search, the diversity in profiles. So much so that a small flirtation with the ISN neo 5 has left me wondering why I even bothered with trying to find another brand to keep my attention (confess I do use H40 as my walk-around-town set).

So today I thought about my headphones and took the Tago 03s out of their slumber. I put them on and was taken aback by the mids and upper treble. Shahen-Shah's voice (esp on Meri Ankhon...) was enveloping, climbing and falling, moving from mesmerizing to painful to everything between. Then listening to Oh Sees' Smote Reverser found myself immersed in the instrumentals and wincing occasionally at the highs from guitar and cymbals.

My takeaway: holy hell, so pronounced, clear and at their altar bass was sacrificed. That said, overall they felt really complete (sic neutral) and just such a different experience to what I get out of the IMRs.

Made me reflect that IMRs are like a drug...or a very comfortable pair of jeans...or something. Even after the reminder from the Tagos, I went back to the IEMs and a convo I had with the owner of Headphones Auditions in Amsterdam came back to me. The short of it was that he believed headphones' purpose was to reproduce the sound as it was created (placing the $4k+ VE Phoenix in front of me), even painful bits like extended treble. At the time I thought, "f-that, I don't want piercing treble." And I think I bought the Tagos in an attempt to live that audio-life and ...I can't be bothered. The IMRs fundamentally take you into hyper-... fictionalized sound that is for me, so much more satisfying than gear that prioritizes the hyper-...real.

Self-indulgent monologue ends.

 

[Ryokan]

And then we go ahead and loosen it up over 700 hours of burn in

No one's going to comment on that it seems! Very good point.

 

[Zeppmeister]

On the topic of Elan+ ... I haven't commented much about them lately, maybe because I've been too busy enjoying them. I am down to one IEM, the Elan+, and one headphone, the Focal Clear. Maybe a strange thing to say, but on days when I need my hair combed (i.e., no headphone hair ), I stick to the Elan+. And ... I use them when my hair can look like Boris Johnson's. In other words, I don't lose anything choosing the Elan+. In fact, with some tracks and albums, the Elan+ does better. Some mornings I'm rather busy and don't get to them until later ... and then I start to feel anxious like I need my E+ fix.

Either I've adjusted to the treble or they've tamed a bit (I'm currently using blue lower/green upper, and Spiral Dots ++); regardless, they are just so enjoyable. Maybe what stands out most for me is the vocals have suitable prominence without sacrificing anything else. It's like the singer is right in front of me (speaking words of wisdom?) and the music is surrounding us.

I've said before here that I don't know I can be classified as a "basshead." To be clear, my music DOES need bass. I'll take a lot, but not exaggerated, boomy, forced bass. What I get from the E+ is enough, and in control, without sacrificing anything.

Two of the most jaw dropping experiences I've had with the Elan+ are both from Peter Gabriel. "Washing of the Water" from Us and "Darkness" from Up. Two very different tracks: the former is a spare, gentle song with tender vocals. The latter is a frenzy of sounds ... almost like a ghost story in a song. in fact, it starts off rather subdued and if you're not paying attention and turn it up, you'll be jolted at the 28 second mark.

The Elan+ presents both with effortless aplomb. I can't really express it beyond that. Also had a quick, very enjoyable listen to this "oldie" last night and it had so much presence, without overwhelming.

 

[NellieG]

No one's going to comment on that it seems! Very good point.