[iFi audio]

I wish I had that kind of budget! This may help you...

Thanks for the link! The Z Review chap has a very easygoing way of doing his reviews.

 

[Baten]

Thanks for the link! The Z Review chap has a very easygoing way of doing his reviews.

Z lately doesn't really claim audible differences between DACs though, just reviewing the inputs outputs aesthetics build quality and features.

 

[iFi audio]

Z lately doesn't really claim audible differences between DACs though, just reviewing the inputs outputs aesthetics build quality and features.

That's why it's a good practice to watch several reviews about a product (of course if there are several to begin with) and average them out. I do this whenever I buy any product, not only audio stuff

 

[Effigy]

That's why it's a good practice to watch several reviews about a product (of course if there are several to begin with) and average them out. I do this whenever I buy any product, not only audio stuff

I do the same, especially with audio. In fact, because there is so little objective actual data (a notable exception being audio science review (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php)) and there is so much subjective interpretation and marketing designed to sway decisions, I will watch multiple reviews from the same reviewer just to get some sense of any persistent preference or bias... then I will watch or re-watch the review about the product I am investigating, keeping an eye out for the personal preference coloring the review. These aren't like reviews of other technologies, like CPUs, GPUs... hell... anything related to a system. These types of reviews are almost ALL data driven. The systems community very much has a "prove it" attitude.

Ever notice that most audio reviews rely on terms and phrases that are derived from other senses? Words like "airy" and "punchy"... that's because there is no way to literally describe and measure the experience of how a persons brain processes the sound. Its like trying to help someone understand the taste of an apple using words.... you can describe what its similar to, but you will never be able to use words to get someone to have the same experience of tasting the apple. A person can relate, but not truly share the experience. This process is more complicated with the preferences and the influences of the person watching or reading a review. When I say "punchy" do we share the exact meaning of the term? When I say "tree" do you think "palm tree"? How do you know that we have the same image of a tree in mind? There isn't an audiophile glossary of terms that we can relate to that is universally accepted....

This subjective type of review for something like a CPU or GPU would be ridiculed off of the internet - in audio its subjective, and there is no way around it with the current limitations of science. Imagine telling someone buying a CPU that the cores were operating in a "airy and clean" way.

Note that all audio vendors play off of this limitation, born of how our minds operate, to get consumers to buy more....being an audiophile ends up being costly not because you HAVE to spend more for great sound - Its not like people have guns to their heads trying to make them buy anything. They know that people are forever chasing the dragon of the "perfect sound."

The not so dirty secret of the audio community is most of what people are experiencing is not a result of the equipment but of how the person is interpreting the information (sound.) If you buy a piece of equipment, and experience a difference, it isn't necessarily the equipment. The vendors will attribute this improvement to their equipment, based on some marketed property in their device that may or may not lead to a discernable change in output. Simply put, its likely not them... its the person listening.

I have come to learn that it is important to be honest with what you prefer first before you start investigating. I recently bought a very pure DAC AMP and found it wanting - FOR MY TASTE. I bought the product because I bought into a subjective interpretation of a reviewer and decided (not consciously) that their excitement equated to my personal wants. The really unfortunate thing, especially during COVID, is that there no way to try products yourself before you buy. Even if Amir at audio science review provides clear data that demonstrates a product has no distortion doesn't mean you will like it. In the context of audio "data" doesn't mean "better."

As an example, specifically in relation to the ifi Zen Stack, I really do like the products. To me, they sound warm - clean. Sounds are full, not missing detail. Xbass on the can is legendary. That said, Amir at audio science shot holes in the ifi Zen DAC due to distortion off of USB Power:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/ifi-zen-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.9885/

I still love the sound when music is playing, but had to buy a proper low noise power supply to address the very noticeable hiss that is a result of the distortion that is likely related to his data. (He tested as shipped, which is absolutely appropriate. He shouldn't have to make a ~$60 USD purchase to get the "real sound." If the sound out of the box is distorted, then its fair to inform people this is what they are paying for. ifi should really provide the low noise power supply like they do with the CAN.)

As well, something that no one mentions is the incredibly annoying click that is audible when bitrate changes on the DAC. (Something that has been discussed in the forums before.) Others are okay with it. I tolerate it but really dislike it. I wonder how anyone can believe a very discernable click won't disrupt the listening experience. Personally, when I am in the middle of listening, a loud "CLICK" takes me out of the enjoyment immediately. The reviewers don't talk about it for whatever reason, but for ME, its super bothersome. As a result, I am looking at other DACs to mesh with the Zen Can to see if I can get the same warm sound with no interruptions.

 

[MisterMudd]

As well, something that no one mentions is the incredibly annoying click that is audible when bitrate changes on the DAC. (Something that has been discussed in the forums before.) Others are okay with it. I tolerate it but really dislike it. I wonder how anyone can believe a very discernable click won't disrupt the listening experience. Personally, when I am in the middle of listening, a loud "CLICK" takes me out of the enjoyment immediately. The reviewers don't talk about it for whatever reason, but for ME, its super bothersome. As a result, I am looking at other DACs to mesh with the Zen Can to see if I can get the same warm sound with no interruptions.

Maybe they don’t mention it because they don’t hear a click. I use an assortment of bit rates via Foobar2000 and have NEVER heard a click in my Zen.

 

[Effigy]

Maybe they don’t mention it because they don’t hear a click. I use an assortment of bit rates via Foobar2000 and have NEVER heard a click in my Zen.

ifi has acknowledged the click - they hear it and have indicated its something they are working on:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-zen-dac-discussion-impression.917041/post-16234060

They have also indicated it should be addressed in future firmware updates.

1) Its real.
2) More people than a sample size of one have experienced it.
3) ifi has already acknowledged a need for a solution (see link)

Consider yourself lucky, but I suggest that your experience is not consistent given the above. Also, suggest the following read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

I find myself WANTING to ignore the problem just so I can be subjectively satisfied, but that's cognitive bias at work. Its not that important that the device work the way I or anyone else want it to work. For me, It more important that I look at it is as it is, using data. This is how people make as informed of a decision as possible - this is how improvements are initiated. Evidently a sample size larger than 1 is experiencing the issue - credit to ifi for saying they are dealing with it, although I would love to know when we will have a solution. (not demanding, ifi didn't commit, and I get it.)

Again, I (ME) subjectively can't stand it - but that's cool. No one has to agree with me. That said, its an undeniable, measured occurrence.

 

[tamleo]

I wish I had that kind of budget! This may help you...

Tks. To me z review is not a good source to trust in imo

 

[Effigy]

All good

 

[iFi audio]

1) Its real.
2) More people than a sample size of one have experienced it.
3) ifi has already acknowledged a need for a solution (see link)

Affirmative!

As an example, specifically in relation to the ifi Zen Stack, I really do like the products. To me, they sound warm - clean. Sounds are full, not missing detail. Xbass on the can is legendary. That said, Amir at audio science shot holes in the ifi Zen DAC due to distortion off of USB Power:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/ifi-zen-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.9885/

We like Amir, he's a funny guy, but we won't comment on his work

 

[Effigy]

Affirmative!



We like Amir, he's a funny guy, but we won't comment on his work

I am sure we are all liked by someone... well, maybe not me.....

.....

That said, I personally would enjoy ifi posting something that argues the data at a data level. I presume he would too. (I have no idea really.. I don't know the man, but I do respect his work.)

 

[iFi audio]

That said, I personally would enjoy ifi posting something that argues the data at a data level. I presume he would too. (I have no idea really.. I don't know the man, but I do respect his work.)

Once or twice in the past we did that, because there was a valid reason to publish this type of content. Having said that, measuring procedures and one's ability to interpret what AP (or any other measuring platform) shows are as important as measurements themselves. That's the reason why we deliberately choose not to comment any measuring work performed on our products

 

[LoyK]

@iFi audio : Do you have a comparison between XBass (ZEN Can) and TrueBass (ZEN DAC)?
I am using the ZEN DAC at the moment with the Hifiman Ananda. I really like the TrueBass but I think it is a bit too much for some genres/application. I think I have read somewhere that the TrueBass is not that strong.
I will soon try the balanced output of ZEN DAC and listen for improvements with the Hifiman Ananda compared to SE.
Would you see the ZEN CAN as viable update option with more power and XBass vs. TrueBass?

Also regarding measurements: This is my measurement of TrueBass on ZEN DAC:

 

[iFi audio]

@iFi audio : Do you have a comparison between XBass (ZEN Can) and TrueBass (ZEN DAC)?

We didn't publish them as far as I'm aware, but I'll double-check.

Would you see the ZEN CAN as viable update option with more power and XBass vs. TrueBass?

It's the same technology essentially at its core, but adapted to two different products. It's getting small updates and refinements from one product to another, so most recent stuff gets its latest iterations.

 

[Deceneu808]

We didn't publish them as far as I'm aware, but I'll double-check.



It's the same technology essentially at its core, but adapted to two different products. It's getting small updates and refinements from one product to another, so most recent stuff gets its latest iterations.

I find the Xbass to be more suited for all headphones as it's more or less a 4/5db high shelf. The Truebass on the DAC feels like 10db that spreads all over above the 150Hz mark. Some headphones sound good, some not.

 

[iFi audio]

I find the Xbass to be more suited for all headphones as it's more or less a 4/5db high shelf. The Truebass on the DAC feels like 10db that spreads all over above the 150Hz mark. Some headphones sound good, some not.

Thanks. I'll ask at our HQ about these filters and if we have some interesting info to share, I'll post it here.