iFi iDSD Micro DSD512 / PCM768 DAC and Headphone Amp. Impressions, Reviews and Comments.
Jan 22, 2015 at 10:00 AM Post #2,461 of 9,047
 Originally Posted by iFi Audio
 
JuleZ3C said:

 
Hi,
 
...  
 
Here is some further technical background so that you are armed with more information on thw whys and wheres.
 
...  
 
Cheers.

 
Wow, thanks a lot, very thorough and helpful information :)
 
You guys are the best !!
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 2:31 PM Post #2,463 of 9,047
I have spent the last couple of days comparing my friend's Hugo to my Micro iDSD. There is a difference between the two using my IEMs.  I am using their amplifiers for the comparison.  My plan is to borrow the DAC for a few more days but I will share my feelings to this point.  
 
The Hugo creates a magical blend between every layer of the sound on the recording.  For example, if the recording has a guitarist at the forefront of the song, the Hugo does an amazing job creating a cohesive sound with the other musicians.  The Micro iDSD takes a different approach, it places that guitarist right in front of you and lets it RIP.  
 
Same thing with voices like in the "Best Audiophile Voices" albums.  The Hugo presents these tracks in a subtle, relaxing way, to make one cohesive landscape of sound.  Not the iDSD; it presents the vocalist as if they were reaching a hand out to bring you closer.  The background music is their to support their voice while allowing the vocalist to stand out and be the superstar.  
 
To my ears, if the iDSD had a 4th filter setting, for PCM, below "Standard" you will start get the Hugo sound.  
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 3:29 PM Post #2,464 of 9,047
I have spent the last couple of days comparing my friend's Hugo to my Micro iDSD. There is a difference between the two using my IEMs.  I am using their amplifiers for the comparison.  My plan is to borrow the DAC for a few more days but I will share my feelings to this point.  

The Hugo creates a magical blend between every layer of the sound on the recording.  For example, if the recording has a guitarist at the forefront of the song, the Hugo does an amazing job creating a cohesive sound with the other musicians.  The Micro iDSD takes a different approach, it places that guitarist right in front of you and lets it RIP.  

Same thing with voices like in the "Best Audiophile Voices" albums.  The Hugo presents these tracks in a subtle, relaxing way, to make one cohesive landscape of sound.  Not the iDSD; it presents the vocalist as if they were reaching a hand out to bring you closer.  The background music is their to support their voice while allowing the vocalist to stand out and be the superstar.  

To my ears, if the iDSD had a 4th filter setting, for PCM, below "Standard" you will start get the Hugo sound.  


That's very interesting. I wonder how the iDSD micro differentiates between the timbres and ranges of vocals - soparanos, altos, basses, tenors - along with the corresponding frequencies they share with musical instruments and separates them in a preexisting recorded mix as you just described.

Perhaps it's that the iDSD micro renders vocals - along with the rest of the instruments - more naturally in relation to their postitions intrinsic in the original mix? Of course a lot depends on cans, speakers, amps, etc., and how they integrate with any DAC to render the final product to your ear holes.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 4:23 PM Post #2,465 of 9,047
Hi. I purchased an iFi Micro iDSD a couple of weeks ago, and I think it is fantastic product. However, over the last week I have become increasingly disheartened by a rather frequent problem. During playback, the music will randomly stop. The first few times this happened, I just had to remember which track in an album I had been listening to, select it and hit play again. This happened maybe 3 or 4 times in about 5 hours of listening on each day. I had initially thought that this was a software issue (Audirvana+ 2.0). However, the problem has changed somewhat over the past week. Now, the music will randomly stop and the mac looses connection to the micro iDSD. I've also experienced an instance when playback through the iDSD stopped but the actual music playback continued through the MacBooks internal speaker. In each case, the micro iDSD was not visible in the audio midi settings. To get it to reappear, I had to unplug the usb cable from the micro iDSD, turn it off, and then plug the usb cable back in. To confirm it was not Audirvana, I switched to using iTunes, but got the same issue (this was the instance where music continued to play through the internal speakers after the connection to the micro iDSD dropped out).

My set-up is:
-New MacBook Pro (i5, SSD, music on external thunderbolt HDD)
>iFi Micro iDSD (using bundled usb cable on USB power, direct mode, normal gain)
>RCA (bundled) > Schiit Lyr > Audeze LCD-2r2

I have also tried using my recently delivered Geek LPS between the MacBook and the micro iDSD, but the issue still presented itself.

Can anyone help me please? I thought I would ask here for others experience and wisdom before opening a ticket with the folks at iFi.

Cheers,
Rich
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 4:56 PM Post #2,466 of 9,047
ifi micro iDSD is still overall better than the nano, both the DAC and the Amp. The bright amp is good with dark or warm headphones. Unless you plan to pair it with something like Beyerdynamic DT880, than you better use a separate warmer amp. For example with Fidelio X1, I don't need other gear, micro iDSD sounds great with X1. So depend on your setup.



Generally I prefer solid state, but I do like HA22TUBE. It is a warm amp with strong bass. But not like other tube amp, HA22TUBE has good detail and dynamic, and quite lively, not mellow sounding.  
Will review it when have time.  Currently reviewing other gears.

hi I'm still waiting on your review on the Audio-Technica AT-HA22TUBE.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 5:53 PM Post #2,467 of 9,047
Originally Posted by JuleZ3C /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi Audio
 

 
Hi,
 
...  
 
Here is some further technical background so that you are armed with more information on thw whys and wheres.
 
...  
 
Cheers.

 
Wow, thanks a lot, very thorough and helpful information :)
 
You guys are the best !!

 
Amen to what JuleZ3C said. So wonderful to be able to get such detailed info from someone who clearly knows the products inside and out. 
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 7:28 PM Post #2,468 of 9,047
hi I'm still waiting on your review on the Audio-Technica AT-HA22TUBE.

 
Yes, still in queue 
wink_face.gif

I have to finish ATH-W1000Z review, then Creative Sound Blaster X7, then DUNU Titan 1, then AT-HA22TUBE... so expect around February mid to end 
wink_face.gif
 
 
 
  I have spent the last couple of days comparing my friend's Hugo to my Micro iDSD. There is a difference between the two using my IEMs.  I am using their amplifiers for the comparison.  My plan is to borrow the DAC for a few more days but I will share my feelings to this point.  
 
The Hugo creates a magical blend between every layer of the sound on the recording.  For example, if the recording has a guitarist at the forefront of the song, the Hugo does an amazing job creating a cohesive sound with the other musicians.  The Micro iDSD takes a different approach, it places that guitarist right in front of you and lets it RIP.  
 
Same thing with voices like in the "Best Audiophile Voices" albums.  The Hugo presents these tracks in a subtle, relaxing way, to make one cohesive landscape of sound.  Not the iDSD; it presents the vocalist as if they were reaching a hand out to bring you closer.  The background music is their to support their voice while allowing the vocalist to stand out and be the superstar.  
 
To my ears, if the iDSD had a 4th filter setting, for PCM, below "Standard" you will start get the Hugo sound.  

 
Thanks for the impression!  
Did you try both Hugo and iDSD line out connected to a headphone amp?  iDSD line output is excellent, worth to test it with good headphone amp such as micro iCan.  Layering is much better from the line out.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 7:40 PM Post #2,469 of 9,047
   
Hi,
 
Will any these technical questions for you.
 
..........
 
 
Here is some further technical background so that you are armed with more information on the whys and wheres.
 
Key things to remember:
 
 
1) Excessive Cable resistace will drop enough voltage that the iDSD micro cannot draw enough current for fast charging or to operate and it may draw substantially on the battery to make up the difference.
 
This problem seems more widespread than one might think.
 
In our testing to find a cable to include with the iDSD micro each and every USB 2.0 cable we tried, failed to allow maximum charge current (1.2A) from a suitable source and most of these cables would have failed USB 2.0 compliance testing. There was no direct link between cost of the cables and effective DCR on the power connections either.
 
This is why we ended up supplying a substantially more expensive USB 3.0 cable (compared to the majority of USB 2.0 cables) as this was the only one tested out of several dozend that allowed full charge current from a BC1.2 compliant charger.
 
 
2) In battery mode the iDSD micro will charge while in sleep mode if it is attached to a "strong" power source (PC), it will indicate this as well (LED goes blue). Otherwise during play no current is drawn from USB.
 
So if attached to smartphones etc. the iDSD micro in battery mode will not "top up"  the battery if sleeping, attached to a Laptop or PC it will top up its own battery.
 
 
3) In USB mode the iDSD micro will draw power, current limited as indicated by the source (0.5A standard USB, 1.5A BC1.2 CDP). This is set by industry guidelines so we adhere to them so that it conforms to other charging products you may end up buying.
 
Only in Eco mode is the current from the USB Bus on a standard USB Port sufficient to power all functions of the iDSD (no substantial charging though and cable resistance can spoil this too).
In normal and Turbo mode the iDSD draws on the battery if it cannot draw enough enough current from then USB connection (not BC1.2 compliant port, excessive DCR etc.).
 
If a BC1.2 compliant port is used the iDSD micro can run all internal functions on USB power in Turbo Mode and has spare current to allow some battery charging to take place.
 
In order to maximise available charge current the iDSD micro will "sleep"  after 15 minutes and turn off DAC, analog stages and preamp/headphone amp, so most of current from the host can charge the battery. Again, USB cables with excessive DCR can spoil this otherwise lovely scheme for maintaining the battery in USB mode.
 
 
4) In off condition the iDSD micro will ignore any "weak source" detection etc. and charge at the maximum dictated by USB Cable DCR and indicated port current limit.
 
 
Cheers.

 
Wow, thank you very much! Really appreciate the shared information!
Such a well thought design, excellent!
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 12:24 AM Post #2,471 of 9,047
  I have spent the last couple of days comparing my friend's Hugo to my Micro iDSD. There is a difference between the two using my IEMs.  I am using their amplifiers for the comparison.  My plan is to borrow the DAC for a few more days but I will share my feelings to this point.  
 
The Hugo creates a magical blend between every layer of the sound on the recording.  For example, if the recording has a guitarist at the forefront of the song, the Hugo does an amazing job creating a cohesive sound with the other musicians.  The Micro iDSD takes a different approach, it places that guitarist right in front of you and lets it RIP.  
 
Same thing with voices like in the "Best Audiophile Voices" albums.  The Hugo presents these tracks in a subtle, relaxing way, to make one cohesive landscape of sound.  Not the iDSD; it presents the vocalist as if they were reaching a hand out to bring you closer.  The background music is their to support their voice while allowing the vocalist to stand out and be the superstar.  
 
To my ears, if the iDSD had a 4th filter setting, for PCM, below "Standard" you will start get the Hugo sound.  

 
Very nice comparison & review.  Thanks for sharing your impressions with us.  I suppose there is no clear one is better than the other, but more of a which type of sound you prefer kind of thing, then?
 
Is there one preference over the other for long-term several hours listening without your ears "getting tired"?
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 3:49 AM Post #2,472 of 9,047
Hi. I purchased an iFi Micro iDSD a couple of weeks ago, and I think it is fantastic product. However, over the last week I have become increasingly disheartened by a rather frequent problem. During playback, the music will randomly stop. The first few times this happened, I just had to remember which track in an album I had been listening to, select it and hit play again. This happened maybe 3 or 4 times in about 5 hours of listening on each day. I had initially thought that this was a software issue (Audirvana+ 2.0). However, the problem has changed somewhat over the past week. Now, the music will randomly stop and the mac looses connection to the micro iDSD. I've also experienced an instance when playback through the iDSD stopped but the actual music playback continued through the MacBooks internal speaker. In each case, the micro iDSD was not visible in the audio midi settings. To get it to reappear, I had to unplug the usb cable from the micro iDSD, turn it off, and then plug the usb cable back in. To confirm it was not Audirvana, I switched to using iTunes, but got the same issue (this was the instance where music continued to play through the internal speakers after the connection to the micro iDSD dropped out).

My set-up is:
-New MacBook Pro (i5, SSD, music on external thunderbolt HDD)
>iFi Micro iDSD (using bundled usb cable on USB power, direct mode, normal gain)
>RCA (bundled) > Schiit Lyr > Audeze LCD-2r2

I have also tried using my recently delivered Geek LPS between the MacBook and the micro iDSD, but the issue still presented itself.

Can anyone help me please? I thought I would ask here for others experience and wisdom before opening a ticket with the folks at iFi.

Cheers,
Rich

 
Hi,
 
Please check the USB connection at the laptop side. The cable may make poor contact, you can play music and wriggle the cable to see if it causes the problem as the music will "dropout".
 
Can also check at the micro iDSD end too.
 
Failing this, open a support ticket if you are stuck. Though there wont be staff at work over the weekend! (we think
bigsmile_face.gif
).
 
iFi audio Stay updated on iFi audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/people/IFi-audio/61558986775162/ https://twitter.com/ifiaudio https://www.instagram.com/ifiaudio/ https://ifi-audio.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@iFiaudiochannel comms@ifi-audio.com
Jan 23, 2015 at 5:00 AM Post #2,473 of 9,047
   
Hi,
 
Please check the USB connection at the laptop side. The cable may make poor contact, you can play music and wriggle the cable to see if it causes the problem as the music will "dropout".
 
Can also check at the micro iDSD end too.
 
Failing this, open a support ticket if you are stuck. Thought there wont be staff at work over the weekend! (we think
bigsmile_face.gif
).

yeah I've NEVER experienced that w/ my iFi Micro, or ANY iFi products I own!
STRANGE.
 
Hope you work it out!!
 

 
Jan 23, 2015 at 5:35 AM Post #2,474 of 9,047
  To my ears, if the iDSD had a 4th filter setting, for PCM, below "Standard" you will start get the Hugo sound.  

 
Hi,
 
This does make a fair bit of sense.
 
Someone had their 3 shredded wheat.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWLBuAW1lEE
 
 
Short Answer
At AMR/iFi we always seek to minimise the impact of digital filters on the music, finding the results to our ears, more "analogue" and more "realistic".
 
Which is why we have the Bit-Perfect and Minimum Phase filter options for PCM and DSD respectively; which are mainly reduced in filter length and complexity.
 
This is subjective and is what we like, that is all.
 
 
Much Longer Answer
 
Digital Filters - Tapping and Mixing Away
Digital filters have multiple delay taps and mix the signal from the multiple taps to create a filter function.
 
A representation of how this works is here:
 

 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/fig5.gif
 
 
A representation of the acoustic effect of using such a filter is here:
 

 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/fig6.gif
 
 
These graphics are taken from Ryohei Kusunoki's article "Non-oversampling - Digital filter-less DAC Concept" (the original source and standard for Non-OverSampling that started the whole ball rolling for AMR, Audio Note, Zanden et al.)
 
It is worth reading and studying for avid students of NOS :
 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html
 
 
 
 
From Zero to Infinite Order Filters - balancing transient and frequency response
There is invariably a tradeoff between filter complexity and filter action. This trade-off affects the transient/impulse response and the frequency response.
 
The least complex digital filter is a zero order digital filter, also known as "no filter" or Non-Oversampling.
 
At AMR/iFi we call this type filter "Bit-Perfect" because it is the only digital filter that is bit-perfect (it does what it says on the tin). It has a perfect impulse response but equally it has absolutely no filter action.
 
The most complex digital filter is an infinite order digital filter. Such a thing does not exist, but it sure is interesting as a concept. Such a filter would have a perfectly rectangular filter function (meaning immediatly above the cut-off frequency attenuation is infinite) and it would "ring" forever (literally, for an infinite amount of time) and the chain of speakers shown above would be infinitely deep.
 
In the real world, digital filters generally tend to be neither very low order (though much of the legendary digital gear of yesteryear used very simple custom digital filters with very low filter complexity - Wadia Digimaster, Pioneer Legato Link, Luxman Fluency, Ayre MP etc.) nor near infinite order.
 
 
One of the infamous Pioneer "Battleships" with Legatolink technology
We remember this technology fondly as it was very smooth sounding indeed. Sonically, it was not too far off the infamous Phillips/Marantz "Battleships" with the TDA1541A.
 
 

 
And it had this:

 
Note, just because a digital filter has low filter complexity does not mean implementing it has low circuit complexity - often such filters require extra DSP or FPGA cores. Put it this way, the Pioneer Legatolink was reserved for their top-tier models.
 
The low complexity digital filters are rarely well-documented, but both Luxman Fluency and Pioneer Legatolink only have three taps. The minimum phase filter in the iDSD has more taps than that, but still very low filter complexity. As said, Bit-Perfect does not filter at all in the digital domain.
 
A common digital filter, the SM5842 cascades:
- a 169 tap filter with
- a second 29 Tap filter and
- a third 17 Tap filter.
 
This makes for very high filter complexity and an equally complex impulse response. This filter is similar to the standard filter on the iDSD.
 
There are designs that like to create filters with even more taps than that, tens of thousands of taps have been implemented and purported as much better than the shorter and less complex filters.
 
DSD incidentally in its purest form has no digital filters and if using the iDSD micro, it has only an 8 Tap analogue filter, which at 2.8MHz makes for an excellent impulse response. This excellent impulse response however is "purchased" at the "expense"  of lowered resolution and more ultrasonic noise compared to standard PCM. Still we find it likely that the impulse response improvement makes up a large part of the facination of DSD, especially at higher rates where resolution and ultrasonic noise are much improved.
 
 
In the words of Linkin Park, "In the End" (read: it boils down to what your ears like)
To conclude:
 
1) DSD has much better impulse response than (CD) PCM (though at a price) and we feel a large part of the attraction of the sonic qualities of DSD is this improved Impulse response.
 
2) Complex filters have a poorer impulse response but better filtering/frequency response. This may or may not be preferred. The nano and micro and Pro iDSDs are at the opposite end of the design sprectrum with minimal filtering or even no filters.
 
At AMR/iFi the route of less complex and less manipulative filters agrees most with our audible sense of how music is "real" and we will continue to work on systems that incorporate them, rather than going after the most complex digital filter in the world. But this is just one company giving you just their take, other opinions also exist.
 
It is in the end up to the listener to decide what they prefer and to make their purchasing choice according to their own taste.
 
Just like specialist breweries and branded beer, both exist and both are eminently drinkable.
 
Please drink responsibly and in moderation
beerchug.gif
!
 
iFi audio Stay updated on iFi audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/people/IFi-audio/61558986775162/ https://twitter.com/ifiaudio https://www.instagram.com/ifiaudio/ https://ifi-audio.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@iFiaudiochannel comms@ifi-audio.com
Jan 23, 2015 at 6:17 AM Post #2,475 of 9,047
   
Hi,
 
This does make a fair bit of sense.
 
Someone had their 3 shredded wheat.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWLBuAW1lEE
 
 
Short Answer
At AMR/iFi we always seek to minimise the impact of digital filters on the music, finding the results to our ears, more "analogue" and more "realistic".
 
Which is why we have the Bit-Perfect and Minimum Phase filter options for PCM and DSD respectively; which are mainly reduced in filter length and complexity.
 
This is subjective and is what we like, that is all.
 
 
Much Longer Answer
 
Digital Filters - Tapping and Mixing Away
Digital filters have multiple delay taps and mix the signal from the multiple taps to create a filter function.
 
A representation of how this works is here:
 

 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/fig5.gif
 
 
A representation of the acoustic effect of using such a filter is here:
 

 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/fig6.gif
 
 
These graphics are taken from Ryohei Kusunoki's article "Non-oversampling - Digital filter-less DAC Concept" (the original source and standard for Non-OverSampling that started the whole ball rolling for AMR, Audio Note, Zanden et al.)
 
It is worth reading and studying for avid students of NOS :
 
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html
 
 
 
 
From Zero to Infinite Order Filters - balancing transient and frequency response
There is invariably a tradeoff between filter complexity and filter action. This trade-off affects the transient/impulse response and the frequency response.
 
The least complex digital filter is a zero order digital filter, also known as "no filter" or Non-Oversampling.
 
At AMR/iFi we call this type filter "Bit-Perfect" because it is the only digital filter that is bit-perfect (it does what it says on the tin). It has a perfect impulse response but equally it has absolutely no filter action.
 
The most complex digital filter is an infinite order digital filter. Such a thing does not exist, but it sure is interesting as a concept. Such a filter would have a perfectly rectangular filter function (meaning immediatly above the cut-off frequency attenuation is infinite) and it would "ring" forever (literally, for an infinite amount of time) and the chain of speakers shown above would be infinitely deep.
 
In the real world, digital filters generally tend to be neither very low order (though much of the legendary digital gear of yesteryear used very simple custom digital filters with very low filter complexity (Wadia Digimaster, Pioneer Legato Link, Luxman Fluency, Ayre MP etc.).
 
One of the infamous Pioneer "Battleships" with Legatolink technology
 
We remember this technology fondly as it was very smooth sounding indeed. Sonically, it was not too far off the infamous Phillips/Marantz "Battleships" with the TDA1541A.
 
 

 
And it had this:

 
Note, just because a a digital filter has low filter complexity does not mean implementing it has low circuit complexity - often such filters require extra DSP or FPGA cores. Put it this way, the Pioneer Legatolink was reserved for their top-tier models.
 
The low complexity digital filters are rarely well documented, but both Luxman Fluency and Pioneer Legatolink only have three taps. The minimum phase filter in the iDSD has more taps than that, but still very low filter complexity, as said, Bit-Perfect does not filter at all in the digital domain.
 
A common digital filter, the SM5842, cascades:
- a 169 tap filter with
- a second 29 Tap filter and
- a third 17 Tap filter.
 
This makes for very high filter complexity and an equally complex impulse response. This filter is similar to the standard filter on the iDSD.
 
There are designs that like to create filters with even more taps than that, tens of thousands of taps have been implemented and purported as much better than the shorter and less complex filters.
 
DSD incidentally in its purest form has no digital filters and if using the iDSD micro, it has only an 8 Tap analogue filter, which at 2.8MHz makes for an excellent impulse response. This excellent impulse response however is "purchased" at the "expense"  of lowered resolution and more ultrasonic noise compared to standard PCM. Still we find it likely that the impulse response improvement makes up a large part of the facination of DSD, especially at higher rates where resolution and ultrasonic noise are much improved.
 
 
In the words of Linkin Park, "In the End" (read: it boils down to what your ears like)
To conclude:
 
1) DSD has much better impulse response than (CD) PCM (though at a price) and we feel a large part of the attraction of the sonic qualities of DSD is this improved Impulse response.
 
2) Complex filters have a poorer impulse response but better filtering/frequency response. This may or may not be preferred. The nano and micro and Pro iDSDs are at the opposite end of the design sprectrum with minimal filtering or even no filters.
 
At AMR/iFi the route of less complex and less manipulative filters agrees most with audible sense of how music is real and we will continue to work on systems that incorporate them, rather than going after the most complex digital filter in the world. But this is just one company giving you just their take, other opinions obviously exist.
 
It is in the end up to the listener to decide what they prefer and to make their purchasing choice according to their own taste.
 
Just like specialist breweries and branded beer, both exist and both are eminently drinkable.
 
Please drink responsibly and in moderation
beerchug.gif
!


Great post! Now the techie in me is all excited for the weekend's liquid refreshments.
 
So in a nutshell, we are getting the benefits of NOS if we want it with the Micro iDSD, plus we can investigate the world of high-sample-rate DSD if we want too. What's not to like...
 

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