[Baten]

May I ask?

Reading the specs about the Burr-Brown dac chip it is advertised as multibit.

Is this a true multibit design like let's say the Schiit dacs?

Hybrid approach. Top bits are handled multi-bit, rest are actually handled D-S.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/are-the-first-bits-in-a-resistor-ladder/

 

[Ichos]

Thank you.

 

[Ichos]

Hybrid approach. Top bits are handled multi-bit, rest are actually handled D-S.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/are-the-first-bits-in-a-resistor-ladder/

So regarding the Neo and with material up to 24/96 what is the result?

 

[Baten]

So regarding the Neo and with material up to 24/96 what is the result?

I don't understand the question. Result is analog waveform of course. PCM is handled as I linked above, DSD is supposedly natively decoded but who knows exactly how, this is not publicly available by burr brown.

 

[Ichos]

The question is if up to 24/96 is handled in multibit or delta sigma.

 

[JWahl]

Regarding the sound, I did find the built-in headphone out pretty nice with high-impedance cans (Sennheiser HD650 in this case) but I preferred the Neo iDSD + Zen Can combo more. The Neo iDSD output is quite good, but the Zen Can has a lot more headroom and I'm a sucker for that bass-boost button (really solves the bass issue of the HD650 and similar open-backs with sub-bass roll-off). Also, the Zen Can was absolutely silent with the 4.4mm out (I'm using iPower X btw with the Zen Can) and even with sensitive multi-BA IEMs connected at +9dB gain (just to check hiss) things were mostly silent up until 1 o'clock position (after which faint hiss set in). I never even need +9dB gain on these IEMs so in practical usage: it's hiss free.

This seems like high praise of the Zen Can to me. Comparing the 4.4mm output with the HD650 to the Burson Fun with SparkoS and Gilmore Lite Mk. 2, I've found them to mostly be a sidegrade, maybe slightly edging out the built in amp of the Neo depending on preference. I've found the Fun with SparkoS to have an excellent tonal synergy with Neo, a little more so than the Soloist 3X. I think you really have to move to something like the Soloist 3X to really get an indisputable upgrade from the built-in amp. Both of those single-ended amps mentioned easily outclass the iCan SE I once owned, but that didn't have a balanced output like the Zen Can. I haven't tried the Zen Can, but it sounds really interesting, especially for the price.

Hybrid approach. Top bits are handled multi-bit, rest are actually handled D-S.
https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/are-the-first-bits-in-a-resistor-ladder/

I think the confusion arises in that the marketing literature makes it sound like this partial multibit architecture is something new and unique when, in fact, most DS DACs have been like this for a long time. I can't immediately think of any commonly used DS DAC IC that uses a pure 1-bit (essentially what DSD is) conversion (Don't know about Sabre, they're super cryptic with their spec-sheet NDAs). On the other hand, it's a good thing that the marketing literature is accurately pointing this out, because many people may incorrectly assume that most or all DS DACs are purely 1-bit DACs. It's just not necessarily new or unique. I really liked Thorsten's explanation in his recent Head-Fi AMA where he explains that this hybrid architecture balances both high and low signal level information retrieval where pure multibit and pure 1-bit only excel at one while being weak in the other by design. The explanation does a good job of calming the Nervosa of whether these DS DAC chips are adequate compared to other solutions.

EDIT: These will probably go over most people' heads, but these technical papers really describe the Various DAC architectures in good detail. The third covers the segmented DAC, which is this technical name for this "hybrid" approach.

MT-014: Basic DAC Architectures I: String DACs and Thermometer (Fully Decoded) DACs (analog.com)
MT-015: Basic DAC Architectures II: Binary DACs (analog.com)
MT-016: Basic DAC Architectures III: Segmented DACs (analog.com)

Not to get too off topic from iFi, but since I know a lot of people get confused about Chord DACs, after respectfully prodding Rob Watts enough about a more technical explanation of the "Pulse Array" DAC, he described it as a "thermometer coded DAC with constant switching" which is how I stumbled on these papers trying to get a deeper understanding. I suspect his implementation differs significantly from the basic variations shown here.

 

[Baten]

I think the confusion arises in that the marketing literature makes it sound like this partial multibit architecture is something new and unique when, in fact, most DS DACs have been like this for a long time.

Well yeah, to me it reads like pure marketing fluff.

The question is if up to 24/96 is handled in multibit or delta sigma.

iFi answer is literally 'a hybrid approach'. Don't know what to tell you.

 

[JWahl]

I'll try to see if I can explain the segmented approach a little better. For simplicity's sake, lets say we have a single digital sample (which in redbook is taken 44.1 thousand times per second) that consists of 8 binary digits (aka bits). 1111 1111 would represent the highest amplitude signal level output, and 0000 0000 would represent the lowest signal level output. A true multibit DAC processes the entire "word" as one parallel chunk (11111111). A 1-bit DAC has to multiply the "speed" by 8 and process them serially or one at a time (1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1). In the case of the DSD 1793 used by iFi, it's 6 bit for the first 6 bits, then 1-bit for the rest, so for a 16 bit sample the grouping is: ([111111] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1] [1]). The conjoined grouping is the "multibit" portion.

Fun fact that I inadvertently learned about the 1793 while "fact checking" to make sure I wasn't spouting BS. The multibit portion of the DSD1793 is NOT R2R, but instead "Thermometer coded with dynamic element matching" This actually make the architecture of the DSD1793 more similar to the Chord DACs than say, Schiit Multibit, except Chord's is done with discrete components and likely puts it's own original twist on the concept.

 

[kmmbd]

This seems like high praise of the Zen Can to me.

Zen Can is very good indeed, provided you:

1. Mostly run off of full size cans (high impedance drivers with medium/low sensitivity work best)
2. Replace the stock power adapter with iPowerX (stock power adapter is not as noise-free).

This amp was pretty much built with the HD650/6XX in mind it appears, so I guess synergy with the particular Sennheiser is very good for that reason. I did find the output underwhelming with most IEMs, not in terms of power/drive of course, rather that they lose some of the dynamics and things become a bit flat down below (which may be a good thing depending on preferences etc.)

 

[Ichos]

Zen Can is very good indeed, provided you:

1. Mostly run off of full size cans (high impedance drivers with medium/low sensitivity work best)
2. Replace the stock power adapter with iPowerX (stock power adapter is not as noise-free).

Why is that?

I have tried it with all kinds of headphones from low Z planar and dynamic ones to high Z with great success.
(Can't comment on iems as I don't see the point of using an amp with them)

Stock power adapter that is provided with the first 1000 units is the iPower which is dead silent.

 

[kmmbd]

Why is that?

I have tried it with all kinds of headphones from low Z planar and dynamic ones to high Z with great success.
(Can't comment on iems as I don't see the point of using an amp with them)

Stock power adapter that is provided with the first 1000 units is the iPower which is dead silent.

I am not quite sure why IEMs don't sound as good on the Zen Can as full size headphones do. This is of course with a few IEMs that I personally own and not a holistic comparison, but so far the Dunu Studio SA6, Final E5000/FI-BA-SS and IMR PB One showed similar characteristics (lack of dynamics). However, the story was different with all the full size cans I tried (HD650, Sonorous III, Ananda). Perhaps something to do with the voltage swing? No idea, frankly. Just my experience while trying the Zen Can with IEMs.

Re: iPower (regular version), the hiss becomes apparent on sensitive IEMs mostly. Not the case with the headphones. The Zen Can Signature edition on Drop comes with the iPower X bundled and I wish the regular version did as well (though I know it will add to cost etc. and isn't a necessity per se).

 

[iFi audio]

(though I know it will add to cost etc. and isn't a necessity per se

Exactly. The ZEN range as our entry-level option has only basics included.

I think the confusion arises in that the marketing literature makes it sound like this partial multibit architecture is something new and unique when, in fact, most DS DACs have been like this for a long time. I can't immediately think of any commonly used DS DAC IC that uses a pure 1-bit (essentially what DSD is) conversion (Don't know about Sabre, they're super cryptic with their spec-sheet NDAs). On the other hand, it's a good thing that the marketing literature is accurately pointing this out, because many people may incorrectly assume that most or all DS DACs are purely 1-bit DACs. It's just not necessarily new or unique. I really liked Thorsten's explanation in his recent Head-Fi AMA where he explains that this hybrid architecture balances both high and low signal level information retrieval where pure multibit and pure 1-bit only excel at one while being weak in the other by design. The explanation does a good job of calming the Nervosa of whether these DS DAC chips are adequate compared to other solutions.

EDIT: These will probably go over most people' heads, but these technical papers really describe the Various DAC architectures in good detail. The third covers the segmented DAC, which is this technical name for this "hybrid" approach.

MT-014: Basic DAC Architectures I: String DACs and Thermometer (Fully Decoded) DACs (analog.com)
MT-015: Basic DAC Architectures II: Binary DACs (analog.com)
MT-016: Basic DAC Architectures III: Segmented DACs (analog.com)

Not to get too off topic from iFi, but since I know a lot of people get confused about Chord DACs, after respectfully prodding Rob Watts enough about a more technical explanation of the "Pulse Array" DAC, he described it as a "thermometer coded DAC with constant switching" which is how I stumbled on these papers trying to get a deeper understanding. I suspect his implementation differs significantly from the basic variations shown here.

I really dig your investigative wok, thanks

 

[Cuthbert 80]

Re: iPower (regular version), the hiss becomes apparent on sensitive IEMs mostly. Not the case with the headphones. The Zen Can Signature edition on Drop comes with the iPower X bundled and I wish the regular version did as well (though I know it will add to cost etc. and isn't a necessity per se).

@kmmbd is it possible for you to test your iFi NEO iDSD by itself with your iPower X, specifically with your full size cans, if you get a moment please? Would be nice to see if you (subjectively) notice any better dynamics, details etc with the lower noise floor.

I'm very interested in purchasing the iPower X for my NEO to hopefully get the last 5% of performance out if it. (Wishful thinking maybe?! )

Even the NEO user manual clearly recommends upgrading to the iPower X "for best performance".

 

[Reyess]

@kmmbd is it possible for you to test your iFi NEO iDSD by itself with your iPower X, specifically with your full size cans, if you get a moment please? Would be nice to see if you (subjectively) notice any better dynamics, details etc with the lower noise floor.

I'm very interested in purchasing the iPower X for my NEO to hopefully get the last 5% of performance out if it. (Wishful thinking maybe?! )

Even the NEO user manual clearly recommends upgrading to the iPower X "for best performance".

My position on this (and perhaps, observation?) is that if you are using the NEO iDSD via USB as input, the external power wall-wart is irrelevant, and perhaps is ignored by the device - and it instead elects to use only USB power when it is available. (Can @iFi audio confirm this?)

I take this stance because when using USB with the NEO, and also have the power plugged in, turn it on, and then during playback ,unplug the iPower, the unit is entirely unaffected.

If my theory is correct, you'd still see potential effect if you DONT have a USB cable connected to a source and are using other input types (BT, SPDIF, etc)... but i think that even if you're using something like SPDIF, and you have USB connected, itll still prefer the available USB power and ignore the ipower... maybe?

 

[Joaqu2n]

In mute, without RCA or USB connected, indeed with my AKG N40 IEM and my Sony MDR-1AM2 the noise from the 4.4 balanced output is annoying, especially when you choose the bluetooth receiver. It looks like an internal electronic circuit issue.

I hope that with a firmware it will be solved, but in iFi Audio they must be very concerned.