[Davesrose]

Surely the issue is that it gets tedious to read on every single thread “placebo, confirmation bias, did you do blind tests, can you measure the effect, can you prove it etc”. Accept that testimonials are subjective- we’re adults here and
can make our own minds up about whether to trust a subjective review- we don’t need rescuing by Amir and co - if we want to know how it measured with an oscilloscope we will head over to ASR

Well when it gets to subjective review.....I think most on this site can agree that all headphones or speakers are the biggest component about different sound signatures (even if you go over to Sound Science). As more and more about society is about buying the product and then demoing, how can we have an informed decision? With headphones its harder because we have different preferences with music and ear anatomy. So I've got to admit that some aspects of a headphone review I might agree with , but then other aspects seem to go way against what I think.

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Well perhaps. I do find the discussion of placebo and confirmation bias on audio forums amusing though as I am a Psychology Professor at a leading European Psychology department and have published peer reviewed papers on cognitive biases. Every time I jump into these threads about tweaks, cables etc I get ‘schooled’ by others about these things or told we should be doing the equivalent of double blinded randomised experiments. Makes me smile - how many actually do that when auditioning hi fi gear ?! I mean I know how to, I conduct experiments day in day out and analyse them using inferential statistics like ANOVA and regression models. Still to me there remains value in subjective opinion.

A long answer to the question, forgive me. So yes, placebo, possibly! Confirmation bias ? No not really as tbh I approached this tweak with a rather sceptical attitude and was rather taken aback by its apparent impact. Is its effect measurable? No idea and the devil’s in the detail of knowing what to measure and then employing suitable methods. Will Amir at ASR measure it and claim it debunked ? Possibly! Will I care ? Nope ! I happily use some DACs that he claims measure badly. They sound great !

Deleted

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Well perhaps. I do find the discussion of placebo and confirmation bias on audio forums amusing though as I am a Psychology Professor at a leading European Psychology department and have published peer reviewed papers on cognitive biases. Every time I jump into these threads about tweaks, cables etc I get ‘schooled’ by others about these things or told we should be doing the equivalent of double blinded randomised experiments. Makes me smile - how many actually do that when auditioning hi fi gear ?! I mean I know how to, I conduct experiments day in day out and analyse them using inferential statistics like ANOVA and regression models. Still to me there remains value in subjective opinion.

A long answer to the question, forgive me. So yes, placebo, possibly! Confirmation bias ? No not really as tbh I approached this tweak with a rather sceptical attitude and was rather taken aback by its apparent impact. Is its effect measurable? No idea and the devil’s in the detail of knowing what to measure and then employing suitable methods. Will Amir at ASR measure it and claim it debunked ? Possibly! Will I care ? Nope ! I happily use some DACs that he claims measure badly. They sound great !

Exactly. Normal humans listen with their ears. That's what they're for. These people listen with meters. As you understand statistics, you'll understand that the correlation coefficient between the two is far less than one.

Their core assumption that it is one is as non-science as you can get.

 

[vext01]

Exactly. Normal humans listen with their ears.

If humans listen only with their ears, then why does a 6 pack of beer make sound quality much better?

 

[FunkyBassMan]

If humans listen only with their ears, then why does a 6 pack of beer make sound quality much better?

Lol. Not sure why you added "only".

 

[mfdoom808]

If humans listen only with their ears, then why does a 6 pack of beer make sound quality much better?

A fat joint can improve significantly the sound quality of any system.

 

[vext01]

Now we are getting somewhere!

How good something sounds depends not on just how well your ears hear. Your mood, how tired you are, your preconceptions, how much you want to hear a difference, how much beer you've had, how comfortable your clothes are etc. can all have an effect.

So when a company sells a device claiming to make an improvement, and we hear an improvement, are we happy to assume that none of aforementioned factors could be the source of the perceived improvement?

If the improvement was due to any of those external factors, what have you actually bought?

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Now we are getting somewhere!

How good something sounds depends not on just how well your ears hear. Your mood, how tired you are, your preconceptions, how much you want to hear a difference, how much beer you've had, how comfortable your clothes are etc. can all have an effect.

So when a company sells a device claiming to make an improvement, and we hear an improvement, are we happy to assume that none of aforementioned factors could be the source of the perceived improvement?

If the improvement was due to any of those external factors, what have you actually bought?

True. But the improvement may also be due to factors that have to do with the manufacture of the device.

 

[vext01]

True. But the improvement may also be due to factors that have to do with the manufacture of the device.

Absolutely!

So, how can we tease apart the unrelated effects of the mind and body, from the direct effects of sound quality? Is there a way?

 

[Moonglum]

Absolutely!

So, how can we tease apart the unrelated effects of the mind and body, from the direct effects of sound quality? Is there a way?

It's very difficult - every sense can be affected by aspects of our cognition, emotion and environmental factors. Take taste. Experiments show that if you take the same chocolate but in one batch add a purple or a green colouring, this will impact the perceived taste, because it is not a colour we associate with chocolate. Research on music and its effects shows that when tasting wine, participants will say a wine is "stronger and more full bodied" if powerful rock music is playing the background compared to gentle classical pastoral music. We are often unaware of these influences.

 

[vext01]

It's very difficult - every sense can be affected by aspects of our cognition, emotion and environmental factors. Take taste. Experiments show that if you take the same chocolate but in one batch add a purple or a green colouring, this will impact the perceived taste, because it is not a colour we associate with chocolate. Research on music and its effects shows that when tasting wine, participants will say a wine is "stronger and more full bodied" if powerful rock music is playing the background compared to gentle classical pastoral music. We are often unaware of these influences.

I agree with what you said, but it's not quite what I meant.

I mean, we have instruments that can measure audio signals to a higher resolution than the human ear, and which are not susceptible to human factors like mood and preconception. Is this then not a better indicator of "does this thing do anything for sound quality"?

(Admittedly experiments can still be biased, but much less so than an unstructured "by-ear test" with all the messy human factors mixed in)

 

[Moonglum]

I agree with what you said, but it's not quite what I meant.

I mean, we have instruments that can measure audio signals to a higher resolution than the human ear, and which are not susceptible to human factors like mood and preconception. Is this then not a better indicator of "does this thing do anything for sound quality"?

(Admittedly experiments can still be biased, but much less so than an unstructured "by-ear test" with all the messy human factors mixed in)

I don't know enough about audio measurements if I am honest to be able to answer that - I simply don't know if some kind of spectrum analyser or whatever can measure everything the human hearing system experiences - I am not averse to the idea if a measurement device could capture everything relevant but then you would potentially need to test the device on a range of different systems and internet setups in case it had different magnitude of effect depending on the system and internet infrastructure - it sounds impractical. But you see what I mean - does it depend how resolving a system is, whether network switches are in play, how good the router is, etc, etc

 

[mfdoom808]

I don't know enough about audio measurements if I am honest to be able to answer that - I simply don't know if some kind of spectrum analyser or whatever can measure everything the human hearing system experiences - I am not averse to the idea if a measurement device could capture everything relevant but then you would potentially need to test the device on a range of different systems and internet setups in case it had different magnitude of effect depending on the system and internet infrastructure - it sounds impractical. But you see what I mean - does it depend how resolving a system is, whether network switches are in play, how good the router is, etc, etc

In this case even electrical measurements at the DAC/Amp level should tell how much of a difference this device makes.

 

[Mr BubbaHyde]

I would like to take a moment to thank all the posters currently engaging in this conversation! Honestly, I find it refreshing to see folks respectfully discussing both sides of this issue, and enjoyable to read along.

I received my unit on Saturday and am currently testing it in several scenarios, so far I have personally "felt" improvement while using it with my Zen Stream, using it in this way is closer to what I experience with the NEO Stream and Optibox combo, so maybe there is some parallel there.

Again, Thanks for all your respectful conversation!

Cheers!!

 

[Moonglum]

I would like to take a moment to thank all the posters currently engaging in this conversation! Honestly, I find it refreshing to see folks respectfully discussing both sides of this issue, and enjoyable to read along.

I received my unit on Saturday and am currently testing it in several scenarios, so far I have personally "felt" improvement while using it with my Zen Stream, using it in this way is closer to what I experience with the NEO Stream and Optibox combo, so maybe there is some parallel there.

Again, Thanks for all your respectful conversation!

Cheers!!

unlike on the "testing audiophile claims and myths" discussion where apparently my claim to be a Psychology Professor is dubious and if I am one I am not a very good one