iFi audio iDSD Signature - The saga continues!

[rudbeard]

I know the problem remained unfixed in the signature. We already had reports of problems with channel balance on the Finale posted.


SO, IF you ask me, you are probably best of all around with a Black Label, look up the battery spec (I posted it in DIY), buy a spare and be done. I also noted the switch order numbers should any die, any smartphone repair shoppe should be able to handle battery changes and soldering in replacement switches. So a BL should be able to have a very long life at a low cost.

Thor

I love the black label and have two or three of the BL (I keep one for the office, one for home, and one for travel). I got the Signature and quickly soured on it due to the ergonomics in use and lack of BT. I was shopping for the larger desktop amps iFi produced when the Signature confused me and then the move to the Diablo line just put me off entirely. I can’t say if iFi made the wrong decision for their balance sheet but losing the good will and appreciation of audiophiles and reviewers alike can’t be good for the company. Intentionally choosing to degrade the quality of your products can’t be good for the company.

I feel like I know exactly what I would like from a future Black Label.

 

[Tomm11]

One of the "Key Features":

"Enjoy precise control with an enhanced volume knob, minimizing any left/right imbalances"

I can't believe that this is still an IFI bugaboo.
There must be more profit in not fixing it than in fixing it.

 

[Hyde00]

One of the "Key Features":

"Enjoy precise control with an enhanced volume knob, minimizing any left/right imbalances"

I can't believe that this is still an IFI bugaboo.
There must be more profit in not fixing it than in fixing it.

From what's been told earlier in the discussion. It sounds like 50% of the volume pot has volume imbalance issue.

We know the Finale is a Adorama exclusive with 1000 units total (limited item). That means instead of using 1000 volume pots they need 2000 volume pots and throw 1000 of them away.

And again refer to earlier in the conversation, it sounds like after one point the factory just refuse to fix it anymore. Maybe it was one of those iFi vs factory vendor issue where the factory either have to eat the cost or they charge iFi more money for the higher tolerance. Maybe in the end both sides don't want to be responsible for this cost, so let's just pretend nothing happened. Then Adorama and the customer gets screwed over because it was advertised as "volume imbalance issue has been resolved" even when it's not. Then the customer will have either to accept it or return to Adorama for a refund. Since it's a discontinued item so it's probably placed very low importance for iFi or Adorama to care. They just want to get rid of it.

Something along those lines lol.

I might be a bit off since I just assumed the scenario, but hopefully this sounds logical.

 

[Tomm11]

It comes down to ifi insisting on using volume pots with power switch rather than having a separate power switch and volume pot.

 

[Hyde00]

It comes down to ifi insisting on using volume pots with power switch rather than having a separate power switch and volume pot.

Oh does the volume pot + power switch 2 in 1 makes it harder to manufacture?

 

[Tomm11]

Oh does the volume pot + power switch 2 in 1 makes it harder to manufacture?

I don't know about harder but more expensive, naturally. I haven't seen a readily available, high quality volume potentiometer with a built in switch, although I'm sure they must exist. But clearly, ifi considers it too expensive to test the switches to make sure that what goes in their product tracks well at low volume. And also consider that since it's a rotary switch (as opposed to push - pull) you naturally lose some travel range due to the switch itself. They could spend the money to have a high quality switch custom made but they don't seem to be doing that ... (when I say high quality, I'm talking about tracking [at low volume anyway]). I'm sure the overall quality of the switch they use is good in terms of durability. And if they are custom made, then again, low volume tracking isn't a priority.
My basic point is that there are off the shelf volume pots, sans switch, that are good quality and track well and plenty of manufacturers seem to have no issue implementing them in their designs without complaints of low volume tracking. I don't understand why ifi hasn't gone that route rather than continuing to put out models with pots + switches that don't consistently track well. There must be a reason but I have no idea what it is. Real estate cannot be that scarce.

 

[Hyde00]

I don't understand why ifi hasn't gone that route rather than continuing to put out models with pots + switches that don't consistently track well. There must be a reason but I have no idea what it is. Real estate cannot be that scarce.

I wonder if it's because this is a portable device, maybe considering the ease of use and also size and room for buttons.

Maybe figure in the end this is the simplest solution + simple for user to use.

We'll never find out.... LOL.

 

[Tomm11]

I wonder if it's because this is a portable device, maybe considering the ease of use and also size and room for buttons.

Maybe figure in the end this is the simplest solution + simple for user to use.

We'll never find out.... LOL.

I don;t think there is any doubt that it's the simplest solution. I have a Topping G5. It has a switched pot and I hear no imbalance at lower levels and don't think G5 owners complain about channel imbalance in general. I don't know what pot they use or if they check the pots and reject the ones with problems but they manage to avoid the issue. It's a $300 device. They use the same type of pot on their NX7 amplifier which is under $200. Maybe ifi should find out which pot Topping uses ...

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Oh does the volume pot + power switch 2 in 1 makes it harder to manufacture?

I should not have thought so, but apparently yes. The small size (9mm) of the Potentiometer did not help.

They could spend the money to have a high quality switch custom made

For a while this in fact how it was done. The actual process was selection, first house, later at the vendor, but that eventually stopped and it looks like it was never fixed, as non of the key people who could do something about it seem to perceive it as a problem.

The unselected Potentiometer is around 50 Cent US per piece, in volume. The cost of putting a chinese worker on the job of selecting pots is 50 USD per day or less, he should be able to do around 500...1k pots a day. Let's assume two in 3 pots are rejects.

So the final cost of the selected potentiometer is 1.6 USD let's be generous and call it 2 USD.

Yes, that is FOUR TIMES the cost of just fitting things as they come from the factory and it is a separate process to implement, document and monitor.

But relatively speaking I do not think that cost is the issue here. If there was any will to fix a recognised problem, it would be done.

I don;t think there is any doubt that it's the simplest solution. I have a Topping G5. It has a switched pot and I hear no imbalance at lower levels and don't think G5 owners complain about channel imbalance in general.

In the Zen range disposed of the switch. It is replaced with a simple pushbutton. Now the pot is 2-Track without switch and while still not perfect, it's much better. Cost is DOWN.

For xDSD and xCAN I implemented a switched potentiometer on a chip, that works without Op-Amp on chip, so I could add this externally. This is also used in the Neo iDSD. It is VERY good and keeps the volume control analogue.

Before I left iFi in '19 BC, after many disagreements about a lot of subjects, the plan was to implement the same design in the next generation "micro".

The xDSD was actually designed as "nano" iDSD replacement with a target price under 300 USD while the original Neo iDSD was meant to be "Desktop nano" that did not exist in iFi's lineup.

The micro replacement was planned as '20 release (I'm sure the Wuhan Severe Respiratory Syndrome would have impacted that, but still) and was to merge in all the improvements of the xDSD Platform (including USB with LDAC) and the balanced, dual loop Amplifier that eventually was released in the Red Label into a micro replacement.

Then planned was a desktop micro version to sit below the "Pro" and "porta pro" plus additional devices in X=nano and Zen ranges and other refreshes.

As we can see, non of this really has happened, years later. Instead the same designs that conceptually and technologically are 2013 standard remain in production and are sold with minor updates and facelifts, instead of being replaced by new designs along the lines I described.

Draw your own conclusion.

Thor

 

[Tomm11]

I should not have thought so, but apparently yes. The small size (9mm) of the Potentiometer did not help.


For a while this in fact how it was done. The actual process was selection, first house, later at the vendor, but that eventually stopped and it looks like it was never fixed, as non of the key people who could do something about it seem to perceive it as a problem.

The unselected Potentiometer is around 50 Cent US per piece, in volume. The cost of putting a chinese worker on the job of selecting pots is 50 USD per day or less, he should be able to do around 500...1k pots a day. Let's assume two in 3 pots are rejects.

So the final cost of the selected potentiometer is 1.6 USD let's be generous and call it 2 USD.

Yes, that is FOUR TIMES the cost of just fitting things as they come from the factory and it is a separate process to implement, document and monitor.

But relatively speaking I do not think that cost is the issue here. If there was any will to fix a recognised problem, it would be done.



In the Zen range disposed of the switch. It is replaced with a simple pushbutton. Now the pot is 2-Track without switch and while still not perfect, it's much better. Cost is DOWN.

For xDSD and xCAN I implemented a switched potentiometer on a chip, that works without Op-Amp on chip, so I could add this externally. This is also used in the Neo iDSD. It is VERY good and keeps the volume control analogue.

Before I left iFi in '19 BC, after many disagreements about a lot of subjects, the plan was to implement the same design in the next generation "micro".

The xDSD was actually designed as "nano" iDSD replacement with a target price under 300 USD while the original Neo iDSD was meant to be "Desktop nano" that did not exist in iFi's lineup.

The micro replacement was planned as '20 release (I'm sure the Wuhan Severe Respiratory Syndrome would have impacted that, but still) and was to merge in all the improvements of the xDSD Platform (including USB with LDAC) and the balanced, dual loop Amplifier that eventually was released in the Red Label into a micro replacement.

Then planned was a desktop micro version to sit below the "Pro" and "porta pro" plus additional devices in X=nano and Zen ranges and other refreshes.

As we can see, non of this really has happened, years later. Instead the same designs that conceptually and technologically are 2013 standard remain in production and are sold with minor updates and facelifts, instead of being replaced by new designs along the lines I described.

Draw your own conclusion.

Thor

Explains a lot. Thanks Thorsten.

 

[jsmiller58]

All this talk related to channel volume imbalance… this is a low volume issue, right? Do you actually notice this in real use? I don’t mean the transient period as you turn up the volume to reach your desired listening volume, but rather while you are actually listening... I personally have never noticed this in real use… but possibly others have?!

 

[alekc]

All this talk related to channel volume imbalance… this is a low volume issue, right? Do you actually notice this in real use? I don’t mean the transient period as you turn up the volume to reach your desired listening volume, but rather while you are actually listening... I personally have never noticed this in real use… but possibly others have?!

@jsmiller58 keep in mind two things:

• the imbalance issue has different range between devices, some have smaller others have larger range, in my case it reaches above 11 o'clock.
• theoretically one could use micro iDSD with whole range of headphones thanks to IEmatch, however chanel imbalance makes it harder with some cans (especially IEMs when you are already quite loud when you start reaching volume area without this issue)

So yes, I do notice it in real use and while I do like its sound I highly doubt I will buy anything more from ifi, especially that my Pro iCan got broken too which just after 3 years or so and there is a problem servicing it.

 

[and~loving~it]

I should not have thought so, but apparently yes. The small size (9mm) of the Potentiometer did not help.


For a while this in fact how it was done. The actual process was selection, first house, later at the vendor, but that eventually stopped and it looks like it was never fixed, as non of the key people who could do something about it seem to perceive it as a problem.

The unselected Potentiometer is around 50 Cent US per piece, in volume. The cost of putting a chinese worker on the job of selecting pots is 50 USD per day or less, he should be able to do around 500...1k pots a day. Let's assume two in 3 pots are rejects.

So the final cost of the selected potentiometer is 1.6 USD let's be generous and call it 2 USD.

Yes, that is FOUR TIMES the cost of just fitting things as they come from the factory and it is a separate process to implement, document and monitor.

But relatively speaking I do not think that cost is the issue here. If there was any will to fix a recognised problem, it would be done.



In the Zen range disposed of the switch. It is replaced with a simple pushbutton. Now the pot is 2-Track without switch and while still not perfect, it's much better. Cost is DOWN.

For xDSD and xCAN I implemented a switched potentiometer on a chip, that works without Op-Amp on chip, so I could add this externally. This is also used in the Neo iDSD. It is VERY good and keeps the volume control analogue.

Before I left iFi in '19 BC, after many disagreements about a lot of subjects, the plan was to implement the same design in the next generation "micro".

The xDSD was actually designed as "nano" iDSD replacement with a target price under 300 USD while the original Neo iDSD was meant to be "Desktop nano" that did not exist in iFi's lineup.

The micro replacement was planned as '20 release (I'm sure the Wuhan Severe Respiratory Syndrome would have impacted that, but still) and was to merge in all the improvements of the xDSD Platform (including USB with LDAC) and the balanced, dual loop Amplifier that eventually was released in the Red Label into a micro replacement.

Then planned was a desktop micro version to sit below the "Pro" and "porta pro" plus additional devices in X=nano and Zen ranges and other refreshes.

As we can see, non of this really has happened, years later. Instead the same designs that conceptually and technologically are 2013 standard remain in production and are sold with minor updates and facelifts, instead of being replaced by new designs along the lines I described.

Draw your own conclusion.

Thor

I just got the xdsd last year. I love that little thing! It sounds great! No channel imbalance at all. I don’t know what I’m doing with the Finale. It sounds more powerful but that could be psychological. I haven’t actually done a side by side comparison yet. I was looking for an upgrade but I don’t think the finale is an upgrade, unless all that extra power adds to the warmth/ bassy quality that I’m always looking for. Great engineering on the xdsd!

 

[Loftprojection]

I use my iDSD Finale exclusively as a DAC feeding a WA8 tube amp. I just tested it and I do have the channel imbalance with IEMs (Beyer Xelento) you guys talk about but it is at very very low volume when using the IE Match and ECO amp mode. If I don't use IE Match and put the amp in turbo, then yes this is quite annoying because the imbalance goes away but at quite a high volume.

Ho well, this is definitely not the quality we should be getting from such a good company as iFi but at the same time for my use case, the iDSD as a DAC only has such a great sound quality feeding my WA8 amp that I am not tempted to get something else.

 

[jsmiller58]

@jsmiller58 keep in mind two things:

• the imbalance issue has different range between devices, some have smaller others have larger range, in my case it reaches above 11 o'clock.
• theoretically one could use micro iDSD with whole range of headphones thanks to IEmatch, however chanel imbalance makes it harder with some cans (especially IEMs when you are already quite loud when you start reaching volume area without this issue)

So yes, I do notice it in real use and while I do like its sound I highly doubt I will buy anything more from ifi, especially that my Pro iCan got broken too which just after 3 years or so and there is a problem servicing it.

I certainly can understand your position. I haven’t experienced this, but it would certainly be bad if I did.