[scott_d_m]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Denons (d2k,d5k) were one of the biggest disappointments Ive had in this hobby, terribly expensive for something you have to use lots of voodoo to sound decent. I see them as popular headphones for the unexperienced listener or the basshead (boomhead) since their sound is like an action hollywood movie, lots of bells and whistles that make up for everything else thats lacking.....

Because of their recessed mids, I'll never buy another Denon again.

 

[K3cT]

It's amusing to see the thread derailed so quickly.

 

[aimlink]

I still like my Denons... very much too.

I'm also convinced that what makes or breaks a headphone for a particular listener has a lot do with the volume with which they listen.

If you don't like Denons, then that's perfectly OK. Since when is it that an expensive headphone has to sound great to *anyone* who puts them on??

 

[AmanGeorge]

I always thought Fletcher Munson curves conveyed the opposite point - that turning up the volume would make mids sound less recessed (higher dB levels lead to flatter-looking curves with a less sucked-out midrange). Is this not the case?

 

[dan1son]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif I always thought Fletcher Munson curves conveyed the opposite point - that turning up the volume would make mids sound less recessed (higher dB levels lead to flatter-looking curves with a less sucked-out midrange). Is this not the case?

Not exactly... the curves are showing the actual volume, but any point on that line is PERCEIVED to be the same volume. So 60db at 45hz sounds as loud as 0db at 1000hz. So basically you can't hear 60db at 45hz

.

The quieter the overall sound, the more bass required to sound flat. Since the phones don't change their EQ, quieter will make bass and treble sound weaker.

 

[runswithaliens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by auradud3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... hahahahahahah so many here are name based, not sound based, very little goes into thought when making some purchases except brand name. ...

Let me see if I understand this; the headphones you prefer are the good sounding ones, while "so many here" just base their purchases on brand name without much thought?.... Amazing... I got the impression that the reason so many people come here to begin with is because they want to read up on headphones and related equipment so that they can make an intelligent purchase based on their needs.

On the one hand it seems like you are making a blanket statement that is insulting to many others in this hobby, and on the other hand it seems that you missed the whole point of the original post which is that volume level changes the perceived loudness of various frequencies at different rates ( so nicely explained in the post just above this one by Dan1son ).

Hope that helps.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan1son /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not exactly... the curves are showing the actual volume, but any point on that line is PERCEIVED to be the same volume. So 60db at 45hz sounds as loud as 0db at 1000hz. So basically you can't hear 60db at 45hz . The quieter the overall sound, the more bass required to sound flat. Since the phones don't change their EQ, quieter will make bass and treble sound weaker.

I have two headphones with decidedly recessed mids, i.e., the Senn HD650's and my Audio Technica AT-H ESW9A. I realised this now that I own and have experienced headphones with forward mids/highs, i.e., my Grado 325is.

I don't like listening to music too loud. I wish to preserve my hearing which is largely intact.

The Senns and Audio Technicas need a little extra juice to bring up the mids. What this does is to create a sound that is less transparent since there's more crowding from the base end.

OTOH, the Grados make for a more transparent sounding experience. At optimum volumes for me, the clarity is gorgeous and thankfully, the Grados have a punchy and tight base so that it's well represented at optimum listening volumes for my tastes. Finally, the Grados scale very well with good equipment and after comparing them with and without my HeadRoom Ultra Micro Stack. Using them with nicely compatible amping, the effect of what you've described comes out.

The Denons are an interesting breed. My Denon AH-D5000's do have strong base but they have a more forward midrange than the HD650's. The overall sound is more lush and I am yet to hear another set of cans that offer more clarity and detail with the base. It's really stunning. Again, the Denons require good amping for good base tightening and detail rendering. Keeping the volume down to what I consider, decent levels is also essential.

I use my 8 yr old son as a benchmark. If he thinks it's too loud he makes this very clear. He's not influenced by head-fi and brand names either.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by runswithaliens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me see if I understand this; the headphones you prefer are the good sounding ones, while "so many here" just base their purchases on brand name without much thought?.... Amazing... I got the impression that the reason so many people come here to begin with is because they want to read up on headphones and related equipment so that they can make an intelligent purchase based on their needs. On the one hand it seems like you are making a blanket statement that is insulting to many others in this hobby, and on the other hand it seems that you missed the whole point of the original post which is that volume level changes the perceived loudness of various frequencies at different rates ( so nicely explained in the post just above this one by Dan1son ). Hope that helps.

What I do find more concerning is the heavy influence of opinion rather than trusting one's own hearing and appreciation for sound, a deeply personal experience which is influenced by the music being listened to, the amping, personal preferences in sound and the sound levels one listens to

. There are some brands that are way over-hyped and some that are way too underrated. So it's not so much a name brand influence issue I'm seeing on this forum. Additionally, it's so much always about the flagship cans. Unless there's a cash flow problem, it's very unnusual to see someone actually come forward to claim that the better of two headphones is the older (the HD600 vs HD650 being a notable exception) or that the newer is really not worth the extra cost.

The Denons do still have a faithful following and I'm a solid member.

However, I do listen to my Grado's most of the time now. At my preferred sound level, they're really something else. Yes, these SR325is'... not so popular here.

 

[runswithaliens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HONEYBOY /img/forum/go_quote.gif I always thought that in order to get headphones to sound balanced that you needed to turn the volume up but that it'll be bordering on the threshold of pain. Aren't humans more perceptible to lower and higher frequencies at lower volumes and is the reason why headphones with boosted treble and bass sounds better at lower volumes than those with a prominent midrange. Perhaps this is why I had to turn the volume all the way up to get my Shures to sound good. Anymore enlightenment on this subject will be very welcomed, thanks!

Yikes Honeyboy, If you enjoy listening to music I hope you will consider how dangerous it is to the future of your hearing to listen to such loud music. You mention "the threshold of pain", which is listed on one webpage I found (LOUD MUSIC AND
HEARING DAMAGE) as being at 140dB! It only takes a short amount of time for sounds that loud to permanently damage your hearing.

Here is a link to a website explaining hearing damage that you might want to check out: Noise-Induced Hearing Loss Its a short read that quickly drives home the fact that permanent hearing damage occurs well below the threshold of pain.

Yes, the volume level affects the EQ, but taking it to that extreme isn't the way to go!

 

[Graphicism]

I stared at this post yesterday right after you posted it, I couldn't think of anything good to say about it so I said nothing at all. I agree with some others that have said the use headphones so they can blast the music without disturbing anyone, I love the theater-like experience I get from my Ultrasones and couldn't imagine them any other way than loud. I would suggest if your headphones don't sound good loud that you need to update your equipment, or perhaps in the case of Denons your headphones. Personally I've found a good headphone will let you raise the volume and still sound just as good, if your music blurs buy something else.

 

[dan1son]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif I stared at this post yesterday right after you posted it, I couldn't think of anything good to say about it so I said nothing at all. I agree with some others that have said the use headphones so they can blast the music without disturbing anyone, I love the theater-like experience I get from my Ultrasones and couldn't imagine them any other way than loud. I would suggest if your headphones don't sound good loud that you need to update your equipment, or perhaps in the case of Denons your headphones. Personally I've found a good headphone will let you raise the volume and still sound just as good, if your music blurs buy something else.

I use headphones because I can play them without effecting others, not because I can play them LOUD without effecting others.

I tend to listen to them at a volume about the same as having a conversation with someone 4 feet away. If someone wants my attention, a simple "Hey Dan" from across the room does the trick.

Sure there are times I turn it up a bit louder than that... but usually for no more than a track. There's only been one or two times when one of my coworkers about 10 feet away has said anything about even hearing it. This is with Grado HF-1s (notoriously leaky).

I cherish my hearing and do everything I can to keep it as intact as possible.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know that the GS1000 sound bright and bassy when played loud, but with low volumes the treble is smooth and bass is not boomy, plus mids sound better.

X 2 - For comparison, the Sennheisser HD600 is one that can sound loud while still being under 80db's, while the GS-1000 needs to be adjusted for the bass and high frequency spike. When the spike peaks at 80 dbs, the rest of the frequencies are much lower than the HD600s if that makes any sense.

 

[Max F]

I like my mids recessed. If I wanted to have a more in-yo-face sound, I would listen to Grados.

 

[runswithaliens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif I stared at this post yesterday right after you posted it, I couldn't think of anything good to say about it so I said nothing at all. I agree with some others that have said the use headphones so they can blast the music without disturbing anyone, I love the theater-like experience I get from my Ultrasones and couldn't imagine them any other way than loud. I would suggest if your headphones don't sound good loud that you need to update your equipment, or perhaps in the case of Denons your headphones. Personally I've found a good headphone will let you raise the volume and still sound just as good, if your music blurs buy something else.

Wow Graphicism, I hope you don't really "blast the music" on a regular basis when listening on headphones. Please see my reply to Honeyboy right before your post for a couple of links to hearing damage information websites, or try a quick search on the internet for many more.

I am sorry my original post was of no use to you. I thought it might be interesting to folks in this hobby who might not have been aware that volume level affects the relative loudness of the differing frequencies. I think one of the mistakes must be that I mentioned the headphones I was using and my experience with them. It seems that mentioning a brand or model of headphone can cause some knee-jerk reactions. Would you say that is the case?

I also want to thank you for pointing out that I may need to update my equipment. I should have mentioned that I have the headphones connected directly to the headphone out of an Emu 0404usb, which, while being well regarded for its DAC, apparently has a poor reputation for its headphone out, and so I am in the process of figuring out which amp to get. From what I have read a proper headphone amp may very well tighten up the bass and add other improvements.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by runswithaliens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow Graphicism, I hope you don't really "blast the music" on a regular basis when listening on headphones. Please see my reply to Honeyboy right before your post for a couple of links to hearing damage information websites, or try a quick search on the internet for many more.

Volume isn't solely contributed to hearing loss, it's also sound pressure where the speaker is shooting the sound waves directly down your ear canal that causes problems. I use Ultrasones and according to there safer hearing page they reduce sound pressure levels at the eardrum by up to 40% (3 - 4 dB) ~ so technically speaking if you're at all bothered about hearing loss you should stay away from the traditional ear speakers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by runswithaliens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am sorry my original post was of no use to you. I thought it might be interesting to folks in this hobby who might not have been aware that volume level affects the relative loudness of the differing frequencies. I think one of the mistakes must be that I mentioned the headphones I was using and my experience with them. It seems that mentioning a brand or model of headphone can cause some knee-jerk reactions. Would you say that is the case?

I'm pretty sure everyone that everyone who listens to headphones can tell if they change sonically from adjusting the volume, this isn't anything new. Mentioning the headphone you use isn't a mistake but critical for your example, clearly not all headphone are built the same and will react differently to volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by runswithaliens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also want to thank you for pointing out that I may need to update my equipment. I should have mentioned that I have the headphones connected directly to the headphone out of an Emu 0404usb, which, while being well regarded for its DAC, apparently has a poor reputation for its headphone out, and so I am in the process of figuring out which amp to get. From what I have read a proper headphone amp may very well tighten up the bass and add other improvements.

Okay this is the major flaw with your 'recessed mids analysis' - You're really under powering your headphones therefor what your experiencing isn't down to volume but your amp or lack thereof. I bet they do sound better at lower volumes and this is why, it wouldn't surprise me if they distorted when turned up. Needless to say when you get an amp you will completely change your mind, the Denons for one are extremely amp/source revealing; the better the source, the better your headphone.