[luisdent]

 

   
What I like about the 272 is the fact that while it isn't as bright and even as the er4s technically, it has a very nice crispness that sounds very realistic. I'm not sure warmth could retain that. So you mean you won't sell me your 272s?

 
lol - you seem like a real cool guy , so if i ever decide to sell them i will give you a heads-up

i haven't tried the er4s and i am sure they are good and probably even 'better' than the 272 but i fear fit issues , so i will stay put with my 272s

the 272 is a very nice,detailed and relaxing iem (no sibilance whatsoever, musical, not to much in your face, spacious and airy although it is a bass-shy but i take care of that with the bass boost on my arrow 4g)

btw , i think that an amp improves the 272 generally

 
I use the 272 with my c5 amp. It also has a nice bass boost, but i've been using the 272 without it and find it sounds more open and 3d that way. But the bass sounds excellent with the c5 boost. mmmmm.
 
I have off an on fit issues with the er4s, but I love it so much I deal with the fit issue. ha. I'm not sure if that makes me an audiophile or an idiot. haha

 

[OJNeg]

I use the 272 with my c5 amp. It also has a nice bass boost, but i've been using the 272 without it and find it sounds more open and 3d that way. But the bass sounds excellent with the c5 boost. mmmmm.

I have off an on fit issues with the er4s, but I love it so much I deal with the fit issue. ha. I'm not sure if that makes me an audiophile or an idiot. haha

It's a fine line that we all tread

 

[Pianist]

 
What I like about the 272 is the fact that while it isn't as bright and even as the er4s technically, it has a very nice crispness that sounds very realistic. I'm not sure warmth could retain that. So you mean you won't sell me your 272s?

 
Not sure how warmth and crispness can be related.
 
Honestly, it really bothers me that so many people seem to prefer RE272 to RE400, even though measurements clearly don't show RE272 as superior sounding. I wonder exactly what it is that measurements are not telling us in this case. It's not like they use different types of drivers - the drivers are both dynamic and I doubt there's a huge difference between them. Also, why would Fang claim that RE400 is superior sounding to all his past IEMs? Is he just lying to make RE400 sell better? I think he could've easily just kept RE262 and 272 in production. After all, they both fit pretty evenly between RE400 and 600 in pricing and could fill in their lineup nicely. Perhaps he didn't want to keep producing IEMs with inferior ergonomics, considering RE400 and 600 are significantly smaller and easier to fit than the previous Hifiman IEMs...

 

[luisdent]

 

 
What I like about the 272 is the fact that while it isn't as bright and even as the er4s technically, it has a very nice crispness that sounds very realistic. I'm not sure warmth could retain that. So you mean you won't sell me your 272s?

 
Not sure how warmth and crispness can be related.
 
Honestly, it really bothers me that so many people seem to prefer RE272 to RE400, even though measurements clearly don't show RE272 as superior sounding. I wonder exactly what it is that measurements are not telling us in this case. It's not like they use different types of drivers - the drivers are both dynamic and I doubt there's a huge difference between them. Also, why would Fang claim that RE400 is superior sounding to all his past IEMs? Is he just lying to make RE400 sell better? I think he could've easily just kept RE262 and 272 in production. After all, they both fit pretty evenly between RE400 and 600 in pricing and could fill in their lineup nicely. Perhaps he didn't want to keep producing IEMs with inferior ergonomics, considering RE400 and 600 are significantly smaller and easier to fit than the previous Hifiman IEMs...

 
I haven't heard the re400 yet, so I'm not saying anything conclusively. I just was saying that warmth is usually the addition of bass and midbass to generate a slightly softer more relaxing sound that leans towards that end of the spectrum relatively. How is that related to crispness? It is inversely proportionate. The more bass/mid bass you have the less treble you have. Crispness as I'm speaking about it, is primarily the nature of the treble response. You can have clear detailed treble with warmth, but the more warm you get the less crisp and bright the sound is.
 
If the re272 is warmer, that might not be a problem, especially as the treble does look more smooth on the graphs. However, the treble being smoother aside, it is also lower in proportion to the bass and therefore warmer. How much so I'll have to hear tomorrow.  I think the 272 would be perfect if a teensy bit of the treble dips were rectified and the bass below say 100hz or less was a tad bit louder. It's not that the sub bass isn't almost perfect, but it is a little less impactful due to the sub bass of the target curve it tries to achieve, as is the sub bass on the er4s. However, it looks like the re400, based on graphs, doesn't do this, instead, while it smooths out the treble (which might be why you hear more spacious details, because there is less masking relative to the treble itself) it also lowers that treble and raises the bass in a very slight tilt.
 
I'm hoping this is subtle and if so it might really improve the 272 in actual listening. However, I have the feeling that it is going to leave the treble a bit on the muffled side. Again, relatively speaking, not actually muffled noticeably. To me that would take away what I like so much about the 272. If I'm wrong and the first thing is true than I would consider it superior to the 272. One more day!!!!

 

[redrich2000]

   
i don't think you're gonna like it when compared with the 272 and maybe you should try the noble audio N4

it seems to be like an improved er4s/re272 - or that's the impression i am getting (and i am usually right on my hunches)

when/if  i gather 400$ and my 2 pairs of re272 both break down , it will be my next iem (unless i go custom)

 
Have you tried the F111? It's always been on my list as a shallow-fitting ER-4S replacement. Another option is the new IM02 which is pretty close to the ER-4/RE-272.
 
And, you've got to get an ER-4S, it's been the benchmark for so long for neutrality. I sold mine a few years ago because of fit but just got another set, even if I don't use them as my daily, I want to have it for reference. I have possibly the worst ear canals for fit, narrow and I have a condition where bony ridges form in the canals. I can use the ER-4S okay most of the time, at least for short bursts. I've been trying all sorts of tip options, the best I've found is the comply long slim tips, I cut the bottom half off about 8-10mm long. They work pretty well for me.

 

[luisdent]

 

   
i don't think you're gonna like it when compared with the 272 and maybe you should try the noble audio N4

it seems to be like an improved er4s/re272 - or that's the impression i am getting (and i am usually right on my hunches)

when/if  i gather 400$ and my 2 pairs of re272 both break down , it will be my next iem (unless i go custom)

 
Have you tried the F111? It's always been on my list as a shallow-fitting ER-4S replacement. Another option is the new IM02 which is pretty close to the ER-4/RE-272.
 
And, you've got to get an ER-4S, it's been the benchmark for so long for neutrality. I sold mine a few years ago because of fit but just got another set, even if I don't use them as my daily, I want to have it for reference. I have possibly the worst ear canals for fit, narrow and I have a condition where bony ridges form in the canals. I can use the ER-4S okay most of the time, at least for short bursts. I've been trying all sorts of tip options, the best I've found is the comply long slim tips, I cut the bottom half off about 8-10mm long. They work pretty well for me.

 
With the right fit the F111 was amazing. But it seems like most people were never fortunate enough to get that perfect fit. I got literal er4s quality response with just the right fit. Just using it like a normal iem though and not working to get that paranoid positioning the sound was warmer and dropped off in the 11khz+ region. Even still, the f111 was one of the only other iems that had the similar treble style as the 272 to my ears. It had that spaciousness with the sort of crisp dynamics even though it was on the warmer side.
 
I've been using the er4 as my reference for a while, but I don't always listen to them for actual listening sessions. Sometimes I do for a while and especially when I need isolation. Otherwise I've been using my ex85 eq'd. It provides me with a similar overall experience with more sub bass and a LOT more comfort. But they ironically don't isolate anything. They're like the hd600 in iem form. haha Open to every little sound in the room. In fact, I bought shooting earmuffs at wally world and I wear them on top of the ex85 to isolate sound. It works surprisingly well. Only at home though. Especially since they're bright pink. I was using the pfe112 as my main "non-er4s" set for a while, but the distortion is just more noticeable to me now. When I eq the ex85 and pfe to the best of their abilities the pfe has a slight veiled quality to it. The frequency response eq'd is superb. One of the best I've heard and really brings out instruments in that regard. But there is a soundstage depth that just isn't there like the ex85 or er4s or other iem with low distortion. So in my book I believe that level of distortion is definitely audible now.
 
Anyway, the f111 is an awesome iem, but I prefer the er4s for accuracy. The re272 is like the f111 without as much warmth and more extended treble.

 

[Pianist]

   
I haven't heard the re400 yet, so I'm not saying anything conclusively. I just was saying that warmth is usually the addition of bass and midbass to generate a slightly softer more relaxing sound that leans towards that end of the spectrum relatively. How is that related to crispness? It is inversely proportionate. The more bass/mid bass you have the less treble you have. Crispness as I'm speaking about it, is primarily the nature of the treble response. You can have clear detailed treble with warmth, but the more warm you get the less crisp and bright the sound is.
 
If the re272 is warmer, that might not be a problem, especially as the treble does look more smooth on the graphs. However, the treble being smoother aside, it is also lower in proportion to the bass and therefore warmer. How much so I'll have to hear tomorrow.  I think the 272 would be perfect if a teensy bit of the treble dips were rectified and the bass below say 100hz or less was a tad bit louder. It's not that the sub bass isn't almost perfect, but it is a little less impactful due to the sub bass of the target curve it tries to achieve, as is the sub bass on the er4s. However, it looks like the re400, based on graphs, doesn't do this, instead, while it smooths out the treble (which might be why you hear more spacious details, because there is less masking relative to the treble itself) it also lowers that treble and raises the bass in a very slight tilt.
 
I'm hoping this is subtle and if so it might really improve the 272 in actual listening. However, I have the feeling that it is going to leave the treble a bit on the muffled side. Again, relatively speaking, not actually muffled noticeably. To me that would take away what I like so much about the 272. If I'm wrong and the first thing is true than I would consider it superior to the 272. One more day!!!!

 
Actually, when I look at the Innerfidelity graphs for RE400 and RE272, I see the treble in both as pretty similar in quantity relative to the bass - both are around 15-20 db down in the treble vs. the bass, which is a little too extreme and thus both should be a bit on the warm side according to the measurements. One thing that RE400 does lack is that boost at 2 kHz that is required in IEMs to make up for the dip of our ears' response in that range when the ear canals are sealed off. For this reason, RE400 may be a little dull sounding indeed. However, even if this is the case, I don't mind it. It still sounds very natural to me. For strict accuracy, RE272 may be the better choice. Technically, I think RE400 has the upper hand, but due to the possibly duller sound may appear to be less technically capable than it really is. When you start listening to RE400, make sure that you don't start drawing any conclusions right away - let the sound sink into your brain first. lol Also, do try it with a good source and amp - I think RE400 responds pretty well to better source and more power... Oh, and don't forget about a mandatory 10000000 hours of burn in which will make RE400 open up to totally new heights! 

 

[luisdent]

 

I haven't heard the re400 yet, so I'm not saying anything conclusively. I just was saying that warmth is usually the addition of bass and midbass to generate a slightly softer more relaxing sound that leans towards that end of the spectrum relatively. How is that related to crispness? It is inversely proportionate. The more bass/mid bass you have the less treble you have. Crispness as I'm speaking about it, is primarily the nature of the treble response. You can have clear detailed treble with warmth, but the more warm you get the less crisp and bright the sound is.

If the re272 is warmer, that might not be a problem, especially as the treble does look more smooth on the graphs. However, the treble being smoother aside, it is also lower in proportion to the bass and therefore warmer. How much so I'll have to hear tomorrow.  I think the 272 would be perfect if a teensy bit of the treble dips were rectified and the bass below say 100hz or less was a tad bit louder. It's not that the sub bass isn't almost perfect, but it is a little less impactful due to the sub bass of the target curve it tries to achieve, as is the sub bass on the er4s. However, it looks like the re400, based on graphs, doesn't do this, instead, while it smooths out the treble (which might be why you hear more spacious details, because there is less masking relative to the treble itself) it also lowers that treble and raises the bass in a very slight tilt.

I'm hoping this is subtle and if so it might really improve the 272 in actual listening. However, I have the feeling that it is going to leave the treble a bit on the muffled side. Again, relatively speaking, not actually muffled noticeably. To me that would take away what I like so much about the 272. If I'm wrong and the first thing is true than I would consider it superior to the 272. One more day!!!!

Actually, when I look at the Innerfidelity graphs for RE400 and RE272, I see the treble in both as pretty similar in quantity relative to the bass - both are around 15-20 db down in the treble vs. the bass, which is a little too extreme and thus both should be a bit on the warm side according to the measurements. One thing that RE400 does lack is that boost at 2 kHz that is required in IEMs to make up for the dip of our ears' response in that range when the ear canals are sealed off. For this reason, RE400 may be a little dull sounding indeed. However, even if this is the case, I don't mind it. It still sounds very natural to me. For strict accuracy, RE272 may be the better choice. Technically, I think RE400 has the upper hand, but due to the possibly duller sound may appear to be less technically capable than it really is. When you start listening to RE400, make sure that you don't start drawing any conclusions right away - let the sound sink into your brain first. lol Also, do try it with a good source and amp - I think RE400 responds pretty well to better source and more power... Oh, and don't forget about a mandatory 10000000 hours of burn in which will make RE400 open up to totally new heights! 

Don't worry. I'm the last person to jump to conclusions. At least in the sense that i stick with something for a while until i'm very familiar with it, and even then longer sometimes. i might give current impressions though. sometimes so many that my impressions seem to change all the time. But really you're just getting the closest thing to being in my head.

 

[Pianist]

Don't worry. I'm the last person to jump to conclusions. At least in the sense that i stick with something for a while until i'm very familiar with it, and even then longer sometimes. i might give current impressions though.

sometimes so many that my impressions seem to change all the time. But really you're just getting the closest thing to being in my head.

 
Do post your impressions please. First impressions will be especially interesting to me. I think people who think that RE400 is much worse than RE272 draw their conclusions from first impressions without attempting to understand and adjust to its sound. They are too used to RE272 character and switching to the significantly different sounding RE400 is a shock to their ears that they interpret as greatly inferior sound.

 

[redrich2000]

   
Do post your impressions please. First impressions will be especially interesting to me. I think people who think that RE400 is much worse than RE272 draw their conclusions from first impressions without attempting to understand and adjust to its sound. They are too used to RE272 character and switching to the significantly different sounding RE400 is a shock to their ears that they interpret as greatly inferior sound.

For the record, I heard the RE400 before the 272. The 400 was my daily for about 6 months, eventually I found myself wanting a more detail/sparkle.
The more I follow this thread the more I think that I and probably quite a few others have come to equate sparkle/speed with detail. The 400 is definitely more muffled and muddy to my ears  than the 272 but I don't think I could not honestly say I've heard details in the music I listen to that I missed in the 272, they might be there but I think it's the tonal balance that I'm really concerned with. 

 

[Nachkebia]

The best tips I ever tried with the ER4S are:
the stick triple flanges (gray) => not so comfy, but excellent and tame treble.
and
Comply P-foams => those are the comfiest, best isolation, and tame treble

... and I have tried a LOT of tips.

yeah tried stock triple flanges and sounds much more open, just the way i like it.

thanks!

 

[Pianist]

  For the record, I heard the RE400 before the 272. The 400 was my daily for about 6 months, eventually I found myself wanting a more detail/sparkle.
The more I follow this thread the more I think that I and probably quite a few others have come to equate sparkle/speed with detail. The 400 is definitely more muffled and muddy to my ears  than the 272 but I don't think I could not honestly say I've heard details in the music I listen to that I missed in the 272, they might be there but I think it's the tonal balance that I'm really concerned with. 

 
I agree that many people equate treble emphasis with more resolution and speed. I think it's just natural because obviously, the more a certain frequency is boosted, the easier it is to hear it. Considering that our ears are more sensitive to mid bass through the mids than they are to treble, especially the older we get, it is not natural that we may hear more treble detail in louder treble and that there's a smaller chance that the boosted treble will start masking the lower frequencies too.
 
In regards to muffled and muddy, I think that a discerning ear needs to be able to differentiate between these qualities. It can be very hard to do from my experience, but it's possible. Before I try to differentiate the two concepts though, I need to mention that I don't consider frequency response to be a direct measure of sound quality. I am pretty certain that frequency response primarily defines sound tuning/character and only indirectly can (not necessarily does) define sound quality. Yes, the more even and extended a frequency response is, the more likely it is that the sound quality is also increased, but there are some headphones like Shure SRH1840, for example, that have some of the flattest, most neutral frequency responses out there and yet has pretty serious construction issues, resulting in high distortion levels, slow transients or other such issues with the actual sound quality. And then there are headphones like Monster Turbine Pro  that have very inaccurate frequency responses with way too much bass or whatever, and yet which have an ultra low distortion, quick transients, etc.
 
Now back to muffled vs. muddy. Muffled (or muted) sound has direct relationship only to frequency response and may or may not indicate sound quality problems. Essentially, muffled sound is just sound that has lower volume in the upper frequencies relative to lower frequencies, so that a person's ears are unable to hear all of the treble detail that is actually due to the higher frequencies being too quiet and due to them becoming masked by the lower frequencies to which the ears are more sensitive. A muffled sound does not directly equal lower quality sound. On the other hand, muddy sound directly and certainly indicates a lack of actual sound quality, usually objectively manifested as audible distortion levels, excessively slow settling impulse response and/or square wave response, phase problems, among other things. Unlike muffled, muddy sound objectively decreases resolution and/or causes smearing and decreased audibility of details due to problems with the sound quality, rather than the relationship between headphone's FR and ear's FR. Muffled sound can be fixed, at least to a certain extent simply through EQ'ing, while muddy sound can usually only be fixed through physical mods to the headphone.
 
At least, that my understanding of these concepts.

 

[luisdent]

Allll righty then. Just got me re400. And it came with a bunch of tips. I've tried a few for a very very brief listen. 
 
These things sound HORRIBLE!!!!! Just kidding.
 
So far there is actually a lot less difference than I expected. My super duper uber early first impressions (one song) would be that they sound less deep. There's something amazing about the re272 and the depth and imaging it has. I'm not really getting that with these. However, frequency wise, it doesn't really sound any less clear or detailed to me. If anything I could actually see how it might be more even in response in the treble. However, something is just a tad "off" with the sound. I can put my finger on it. Maybe I need to find the right tips. Not sure. It just doesn't sound as correct in coherence as the re272. Like when a speaker is out of phase and you don't know it at first, but you definitely know something is off. It's not that bad, but something is calling my attention that I can't place my finger on. Not sure what it is yet. But overall, they do sound very very nice. In fact, I'm not sure you can get a better earphone for $100. Wow in that regard. The closest thing would be the ue700, and I think these wipe the floor with those. (not that those are bad). Lastly, so far with the tips I'm using, they don't really sound that much warmer to me. Maybe a tiny bit, but I almost swear the treble extends higher or something which almost balanced the two out in that regard. Need more listening time. More to come... 

 

[luisdent]

Sorry, I just have to say... Holy CRAP, I can't believe these were only $99. WHAT?!? lol The quality for the price is absolutely insane.

 

[Pianist]

Glad you have positive first impressions of RE400 luisdent. I hope you'll like them more with time. I am pretty certain that they have more depth to the sound than RE272 does. That's one of the main reasons I love them actually - the sound is very 3D. RE272 had more width than depth to my ears and weren't as 3D sounding to me. I guess a more correct word term to use will be layering. I will RE400 has better layering abilities than RE272 or ER4.
 
BTW, have you tried RE0?