If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
Jun 21, 2016 at 6:02 AM Post #8,281 of 19,251
   
x2. I almost want to blind order an SR or XR just based on this :).
Always liked Etymotics no-BS / no-price gouging attitude, only met or have seen great people from this company.
The rep in Japan Fujiya shows is very cool guy.

 
the rep i talked to at the expo in LA was a great very chill and very honest dude.
I was very happy to meet him and talk to him, something i almost never say about company reps,
i guess ety only hires honest and chill people!
 
I wish i took a video or something back then but who cares now, we all have our SRs and XRs!!!
 
edit: haha it sounds like i wish i took a video of the rep, hahaha! no, i wish i took a video of the SR and XR and his demo of them vs the old model ER4's. I am still wanting to buy someone's ER4B' though... maybe someone who was going to trade them in could trade them in to me for some cash dollars...
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 6:36 AM Post #8,282 of 19,251
While we have the rep here I have one friendly request, please make your resistor more available for DIYer and after market cable makers. Most cable makers will not touch the ER4X recabling as they believe that magic of ER4X is in there resistor that is almost always a destructive process if one hopes to extract it from its enclosure. 
 
Here is the only cable maker brave enough to tackle all this:
 

Source: http://e4ua.jp/?p=1653
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 6:52 AM Post #8,283 of 19,251
  While we have the rep here I have one friendly request, please make your resistor more available for DIYer and after market cable makers. Most cable makers will not touch the ER4X recabling as they believe that magic of ER4X is in there resistor that is almost always a destructive process if one hopes to extract it from its enclosure. 
 
Here is the only cable maker brave enough to tackle all this:
 
 
Source: http://e4ua.jp/?p=1653

The new versions do not have resistors built into the cable.
With the old version, the usual way is to build the resistors into an adapter, so that standard cables can be used.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:27 AM Post #8,284 of 19,251
I guess it depends on what one considers "smallish". :p


I believe in diminishing returns, , but i also believe the er4 series are the most accurate things out there. So a small upgrade of an er4 to me is getting closer to perfection. Or at least a slightly different take on that already close to perfect sound. One might pay hundreds more to go from one mediocre earphone to another. And then hundreds more to go to another different sounding earphone.


With the er4, you are getting what you pay for in my opinion. So a small change in sound may be a big change in perception and enjoyment to one person and a financial drain for another. So definitely a personal decision :)


I bought both new models,and I'm by no means wealthy. But I've soent more going through many other earphones that ultimately were not up to par. These are all there. So i know they are worth it to me. And they also have decent resell values. So i could always keep the one i like best later and get back probably $300 for the other two. Just my thoughts. :)


Well, I think it will help people decide once they have been out in the field a bit longer.  With all of the changes we made, I think it's a significant improvement but again, I'm incredibly biased.  I'm also basing that on more than just the changes in sound.

One of my pet peeves is when companies make improvements and immediately try to convince their loyal customers that the previous model they own is now completely flawed.  So I'm not going to do that.  I guess I should be careful not to undersell it too much or I might convince people not to upgrade who might otherwise have considered it.  I'm not just not one for a lot of hyperbole.


Definitely. I didn't mean to say everyone should get it because it's a huge upgrade in every way. :) just that to some it will be perceived as a better listening/user experience, that's all. I'm not running out and selling my er4s just yet. But i am glad i got the new models. :)
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:34 AM Post #8,285 of 19,251
  It is a pleasure to read you, Etydave. Your posts, despite you being an engineer at ER still manage to come across as totally honest. 
I have long been a happy owner of the 4S, they have given me so much pleasure. I tried the 4P and truly disliked them. They defeated the purpose in my view: suddenly all what made the 4S so special, their transparency, their silky medium... were suddenly gone. I feel exactly like you: "I'd trade very low frequency accuracy for high frequency accuracy"
This being said, I have always looked and sill look for an IEM giving me the same level of transparency and yet with deeper bass.
My second issue with the 4S is how weak they sound when connected to an Iphone (unfortunately now my main source with headphones) and it is probably not helped by the fact I have the silicon custom molds fitted, whic probably takes the drivers a little too far from the eardrum.
So sorry for the long introduction but given how unpractical it is to try both the 4XR and the 4SR, (I live in London and especially if I use your kind upgrade scheme it will be difficult to order both and return one), I must say none of the posts I have read have given me an accurate idea on the one I'd prefer.
So the bottom line for me is:
- does the XR make any compromise on the definition of mids and highs? Or they simply add a bit more bass to the presentation without taking any of their transparency away?
- are they both more Iphone-friendly?
 
I would truly appreciate if you find the time to reply to me.
thank you

 
Thanks for the positive feedback, oventurini.  I'm really enjoying being here and conversing with all the members.
 
OK, I'll try to answer your questions; hopefully they bring a little bit more clarity.  I can certainly understand the logistical difficulties of trying out both models.
 
1.)  Both the ER4XR and the ER4SR are more iPhone friendly than the ER4S.  The sensitivity of the ER4S is a bit on the low side and the new models simply have more output for a given voltage level.  I do believe you would find this to be a significant improvement.
 
2.)  The ER4SR and ER4XR have basically the same mids and highs, so I personally wouldn't say the XR makes any compromise in that area.  In fact, the entire design goal of the XR was to make an earphone with a modest bass boost that didn't compromise the mids and highs. 
 
Comparatively, the ER4P is basically the same acoustic design as the ER4S with a lower impedance, which gave a much needed sensitivity boost but tilted the overall shape of the frequency response.  This certainly did change the mids and highs.  Some people preferred it, some didn't, but it was decidedly different than the ER4S.   The ER4XR and ER4SR differ in that they are designed differently on an acoustic level and share the same impedance, so both have the same sensitivity, but the XR has more low end.
 
Now, some feel that extra low end masks the sound in a way that changes the mids and highs even if they measure identically.  It's just the way the brain sometimes perceive sound.  Or, with the low end a bit different, sometimes people set the output on their player differently.  I can't guarantee exactly how you will perceive the XR vs the SR.  Right now, some prefer one over the other.  I will say this: from the folks that prefer the SR, I don't recall most of them saying they felt the old 4S was lacking in low end.  Most of the folks I've met that felt the old 4S (or 4P) was lacking in low end ended up preferring the XR.
 
3.)  The question you hinted at, but didn't directly ask:  If your custom earmolds pull the driver too far away from the eardrum, that itself can affect the mids and highs.  the sound channel lengths and diameter of the eartip is factored into our design, so changing it can affect things.  If you like the sound of it now with your ER4S then the comparisons above should still hold.  It's just an FYI.
 
Cheers,

Dave
 
 

 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:37 AM Post #8,286 of 19,251
   
x2. I almost want to blind order an SR or XR just based on this :).
Always liked Etymotics no-BS / no-price gouging attitude, only met or have seen great people from this company.
The rep in Japan Fujiya shows is very cool guy.

 
Thank you very much.  We've received wonderful support over the years from many customers over the world, but Japan in particular has been very supportive.  Over the years, I've met many of our International reps but have not had the good fortune to meet Fujiya yet.  I hope to change that one day.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:40 AM Post #8,287 of 19,251
   
the rep i talked to at the expo in LA was a great very chill and very honest dude.
I was very happy to meet him and talk to him, something i almost never say about company reps,
i guess ety only hires honest and chill people!
 
I wish i took a video or something back then but who cares now, we all have our SRs and XRs!!!
 
edit: haha it sounds like i wish i took a video of the rep, hahaha! no, i wish i took a video of the SR and XR and his demo of them vs the old model ER4's. I am still wanting to buy someone's ER4B' though... maybe someone who was going to trade them in could trade them in to me for some cash dollars...

 
Nah, take a video of the rep.  Give him his fifteen minutes of fame. 
biggrin.gif

 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:41 AM Post #8,288 of 19,251
Definitely. I didn't mean to say everyone should get it because it's a huge upgrade in every way. :) just that to some it will be perceived as a better listening/user experience, that's all. I'm not running out and selling my er4s just yet. But i am glad i got the new models. :)

 
Yeah, I had no issue at all with what you said.  I was just adding on.  :)
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:42 AM Post #8,289 of 19,251
  The new versions do not have resistors built into the cable.
With the old version, the usual way is to build the resistors into an adapter, so that standard cables can be used.

 
Yep, this is correct.
 
If we do a new ER4B version, we would have to put components in the cable, though.  There just isn't room enough in the earpieces to fit all of it in.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:51 AM Post #8,290 of 19,251
  While we have the rep here I have one friendly request, please make your resistor more available for DIYer and after market cable makers. Most cable makers will not touch the ER4X recabling as they believe that magic of ER4X is in there resistor that is almost always a destructive process if one hopes to extract it from its enclosure. 
 
Here is the only cable maker brave enough to tackle all this:
 

Source: http://e4ua.jp/?p=1653

 
Sometimes people ascribe magic to decidedly non-magical things.  The resistor in the ER4 is very necessary as it helps define the sound.  Just as importantly, it reduces the amount of current so you don't blow up your earphone.
 
If one were to use a different value resistor, the sound could change in a way that I find magical.  But the resistors themselves aren't magical. It's the most standardized part in the earphone.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 9:06 AM Post #8,291 of 19,251
   
Yep, this is correct.
 
If we do a new ER4B version, we would have to put components in the cable, though.  There just isn't room enough in the earpieces to fit all of it in.


Would it be possible to use an inline pigtail adapter to convert the 4SR to 4BR in a similar way to the old P-S adapter?
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 9:12 AM Post #8,292 of 19,251
 
Would it be possible to use an inline pigtail adapter to convert the 4SR to 4BR in a similar way to the old P-S adapter?

 
Possibly.  We talked about that last week.  We'll have to tweak the values of the rest of circuit to account for the resistance in the earpiece, but more than likely it could be done.
 
I'm not sure if we'd go with a pigtail, though.  It might make sense instead to just offer a different cable.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 9:31 AM Post #8,293 of 19,251
   
Possibly.  We talked about that last week.  We'll have to tweak the values of the rest of circuit to account for the resistance in the earpiece, but more than likely it could be done.
 
I'm not sure if we'd go with a pigtail, though.  It might make sense instead to just offer a different cable.


Yes... a different cable, now that they are officially detachable.
@audionewbi will want a balanced cable (AK termination?)
wink_face.gif

 
Jun 21, 2016 at 9:55 AM Post #8,294 of 19,251
Regarding the sr vs. xr response. I can say firsthand that my two pairs personally sound identical in the mid/treble. They may not even measure identically, but the overall upper response is pretty much indistinguishable. I haven't done excruciating listening tests, but I've listened to both on their own for a while now, and I'm very very familiar with the er4s.

So I can say that to my ears, the new models both sound the same other than the bass boost. I find that the boost isn't enough to really "mask" anything. I would venture as far as to say there is no masking of details. If you can hear something on the sr you can hear it on the xr. The difference is in the "perceived" masking.

In other words, while technically any boost in one frequency area will "mask" others, the masking usually comes in the form of distraction. This is exactly why there is "mixing" when recording an album. If one sound is too loud it drowns out another. This goes for "instruments" as well as "frequencies". But that doesn't necessarily mean you can't "hear" certain details, but attention is drawn away from them.

So if you think of it in this way, the best way I can describe the xr bass boost is that it draws your attention just a little more to the low end of the spectrum and a little less from the treble transients.

Listening to a song with guitars and basses, the sr might draw your attention to the texture of the guitars. The xr might draw your attention to the bass guitar more. If you listen to the guitar though you would still hear the texture, it's just that the balance is lsightly shifted to the low end.

Let me be clear though, the difference between the two is much less than the difference between more earphones. So one might argue that there is almost no masking and it is just a little more bass. But I guess that might depend on how you focus your attentinon while listening. I feel personally that I "notice" certain instruemtns or sounds more on each, but I never feel that either has any "hidden" details at all. They are both sufficiently accurate and smooth in reponse that all details can easily be heard with both.

In fact the bass boost is such a smooth and gradual curve that it really helps eliminate masking effects that you would typically expect and more just sounds like a slight "tilt" in the response. In other words, it isn't a bass peak or bump as much as a gradual curve bringing the whole sound a bit more "meat" or body.

I agree completely about the people who found the er4s bass thin. If they didn't think it was awful, and just thought is needed "a bit more bass". The xr will probably rock! If you found the er4s was almost perfect, the sr is even better in bass perception, but don't take that to mean it has more bass... It's just that the bass sounds better to my ear. I will always say the er4 of any model should have a bit more sub bass, but that's just aiming for real bass perfection. The sub bass is superb, but the lowest end of the bass is the only thing i ever feel could be improved by a few db.

I'm just blabbing now, so i'll stop. But both models are superb, and if you thought the er4s needed a bit more bass, the xr shouldn't sacrifice anything at all from the sr for you.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 11:24 AM Post #8,295 of 19,251
Regarding the sr vs. xr response. I can say firsthand that my two pairs personally sound identical in the mid/treble. They may not even measure identically, but the overall upper response is pretty much indistinguishable. I haven't done excruciating listening tests, but I've listened to both on their own for a while now, and I'm very very familiar with the er4s.

So I can say that to my ears, the new models both sound the same other than the bass boost. I find that the boost isn't enough to really "mask" anything. I would venture as far as to say there is no masking of details. If you can hear something on the sr you can hear it on the xr. The difference is in the "perceived" masking.

In other words, while technically any boost in one frequency area will "mask" others, the masking usually comes in the form of distraction. This is exactly why there is "mixing" when recording an album. If one sound is too loud it drowns out another. This goes for "instruments" as well as "frequencies". But that doesn't necessarily mean you can't "hear" certain details, but attention is drawn away from them.

So if you think of it in this way, the best way I can describe the xr bass boost is that it draws your attention just a little more to the low end of the spectrum and a little less from the treble transients.

Listening to a song with guitars and basses, the sr might draw your attention to the texture of the guitars. The xr might draw your attention to the bass guitar more. If you listen to the guitar though you would still hear the texture, it's just that the balance is lsightly shifted to the low end.

Let me be clear though, the difference between the two is much less than the difference between more earphones. So one might argue that there is almost no masking and it is just a little more bass. But I guess that might depend on how you focus your attentinon while listening. I feel personally that I "notice" certain instruemtns or sounds more on each, but I never feel that either has any "hidden" details at all. They are both sufficiently accurate and smooth in reponse that all details can easily be heard with both.

In fact the bass boost is such a smooth and gradual curve that it really helps eliminate masking effects that you would typically expect and more just sounds like a slight "tilt" in the response. In other words, it isn't a bass peak or bump as much as a gradual curve bringing the whole sound a bit more "meat" or body.

I agree completely about the people who found the er4s bass thin. If they didn't think it was awful, and just thought is needed "a bit more bass". The xr will probably rock! If you found the er4s was almost perfect, the sr is even better in bass perception, but don't take that to mean it has more bass... It's just that the bass sounds better to my ear. I will always say the er4 of any model should have a bit more sub bass, but that's just aiming for real bass perfection. The sub bass is superb, but the lowest end of the bass is the only thing i ever feel could be improved by a few db.

I'm just blabbing now, so i'll stop. But both models are superb, and if you thought the er4s needed a bit more bass, the xr shouldn't sacrifice anything at all from the sr for you.


Keep blabbing. This is very helpful!!
 

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