[luisdent]

   
 
Remember that the ER4S always cost $300+, even when it came out in the 90s. It's just stuck to that price. $300 isn't quite what it used to be.

 
That's besides the point.  The er4s is a hell of a lot more worth $800-1000 than the ie800.  And by 90's pricing what would that make the ie800 back then?
 

   
Just a reminder the IE800 costs $1,000 not $800. Regardless of price, and as noted already, I personally prefer the ER4S' sonics.

 
Even worse. haha
 
Not to mention, you could argue that the er4s had to be more expensive when production was new and the company had to get it more well known, etc.  Over time it makes sense that as it became more popular it would become more easy to mass produce, or at least produce more of them more easily as demand increased and parts could be ordered or made in larger quantities.
 
Even if the i800 follows the same path of production/cost, it will still probably never drop to be any less than twice the price of the er4s.  And there lies the irony.  I believe the er4s to be twice the earphone in almost every way.  I'll just say that there are no complaints from me.  I'm happy to actually prefer the cheaper earphone.

 

[eke2k6]

   
That's besides the point.  The er4s is a hell of a lot more worth $800-1000 than the ie800.  And by 90's pricing what would that make the ie800 back then?
 
 

 
$300 

 
 
 
By the way, I truly don't get the hate for the IE800. It has the best midrange I've heard, and the bass is very well controlled, despite the size. The treble is truly only an issue at higher volumes too. Did I mention that midrange?

 

[gnarlsagan]

$300 :wink_face:



By the way, I truly don't get the hate for the IE800. It has the best midrange I've heard, and the bass is very well controlled, despite the size. The treble is truly only an issue at higher volumes too. Did I mention that midrange?

Now that I think about it, the IE800's mids remind me of the GR07. For some reason I didn't even think about the GR07 when I had the IE800. I'd probably take the GR07 over the IE800 though just for the form factor. I'd put them on a somewhat equal sonic footing, in that they both have issues that bug me in a near equal amount lol.

I'd throw the FXT90 in there though as a similar sound signature that could compete with the IE800. It's been too long since I've heard them to make any definitive statements about sound though. It'd be great to do a head to head comparison.

IE800 mids though were too warm for me (for $1000), but not bad. I didn't hate the IE800, it's just that imo something like the GR07 does nearly as well sonically for my taste (I feel similar "meh" towards both) with much better form factor. The IE800 just felt so mediocre all around.

 

[eke2k6]

Jeez! You know I'm like the resident GR07 fanboy on HF, but...wow.
 
The FXT90 sounds nothing like, nor anywhere near the IE800 actually. I got rid of mine within an hour of getting it in.

 

[vwinter]

Gnarl, you must be talking about the looower mids, ie 200-500hz because the IE800 is flatter from 500-1500 than even the F111, and arguably possibly even less warm up to around 750hz. Between about 750 to ~1750, the F111 have a remarkably similar tonality to the IE800. I used a very simple vocal track for both.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Jeez! You know I'm like the resident GR07 fanboy on HF, but...wow.

The FXT90 sounds nothing like, nor anywhere near the IE800 actually. I got rid of mine within an hour of getting it in.

I'm not saying the FXT90 and IE800 are twins, but the FXT90 does have slightly recessed mids and crispy treble. Bass is more mid-bass focused for sure, but emphasized.

The GR07 has less sub-bass and less of a treble peak than the IE800, which I prefer, even though it's still too colored for me. What's "better" about the IE800 in your opinion? I mean I might put the IE800 slightly ahead given another a/b but really not $850 ahead. Maybe $200-300 because (very large) diminishing returns.

Gnarl, you must be talking about the looower mids, ie 200-500hz because the IE800 is flatter from 500-1500 than even the F111, and arguably possibly even less warm up to around 750hz. Between about 750 to ~1750, the F111 have a remarkably similar tonality to the IE800. I used a very simple vocal track for both.

Hmm I would also describe the F111 as a bit warm, but the difference is that the F111 isn't recessed from 2-5k, so the upper registers of the vocal range are more present. That's just me though and the F111 is quite fickle.

 

[luisdent]

   
$300 

 
 
 
By the way, I truly don't get the hate for the IE800. It has the best midrange I've heard, and the bass is very well controlled, despite the size. The treble is truly only an issue at higher volumes too. Did I mention that midrange?

 
haha  $1000 would be about $550.  If it drops to $800 now that would equate to about $440.  
 
But anyhow, the high-mids or low-highs are what I find recessed.  I would take the gr07 personally between the two.  I'd take the f111 hands down.  I'm telling you guys, the fit is unbelievably critical.  It is er4s like frequency with the perfect fit.  Not warm.  Unfortunately, I think most people will only ever hear the warm sound of them, because they'll never achieve the perfect fit. I miss the f111, but they were extremely difficult to consistently fit and they're expensive and not readily available and possibly stopping production.  I don't know, i think the er4s are the best i've heard overall.  The pfe112 with my custom eq is "almost" as good frequency wise, but better imaging/soundstage wise...

 

[eke2k6]

What's "better" about the IE800 in your opinion?

 

 
The midrange alone is enough. It may not suit your ideals, but it is among the most impressive I heard in how it delivers information with finesse. The ER6 and HF5 do what they do by boosting the upper mids, whereas the IE800 does it seemingly without trying. Bass is a matter of taste, and I found it quite good. I certainly preferred the IE800 sub-bass to the comparative lack on the Etys. Then when you factor in the "ungraphables"...
 
 
Absolutely nothing in this hobby is "worth" so much more money. I mean, why is gold worth more than silver? If you like the improvements/changes, you pay for it.
 
 
 
Quote:

   
haha  $1000 would be about $550.  If it drops to $800 now that would equate to about $440.  
 
But anyhow, the high-mids or low-highs are what I find recessed.  I would take the gr07 personally between the two.  I'd take the f111 hands down.  I'm telling you guys, the fit is unbelievably critical.  It is er4s like frequency with the perfect fit.  Not warm.  Unfortunately, I think most people will only ever hear the warm sound of them, because they'll never achieve the perfect fit. I miss the f111, but they were extremely difficult to consistently fit and they're expensive and not readily available and possibly stopping production.  I don't know, i think the er4s are the best i've heard overall.  The pfe112 with my custom eq is "almost" as good frequency wise, but better imaging/soundstage wise...

 
 
If your reference is the DF curve, then there isn't much out there that will satisfy you. I mean, just look at the boost in the upper mids. I feel like it's almost cheating, because a lot of information resides in that area. Boosting it that much is the audiophile equivalent of the Beats bass boost.
 

 

[gnarlsagan]

If your reference is the DF curve, then there isn't much out there that will satisfy you. I mean, just look at the boost in the upper mids. I feel like it's almost cheating, because a lot of information resides in that area. Boosting it that much is the audiophile equivalent of the Beats bass boost.

The boost is just doing the job of the outer ear, since the outer ear is being bypassed when wearing iems and can't naturally emphasize those frequencies as it normally does. Without that emphasis to at least some degree, the mids from an iem won't match sound coming from outside the ear very well imo. Or it'd be like how van Gogh heard music from one side. He'd probably love the IE800.

I'm not sure that the outer ear boosts bass or treble at all, so any additions there need some other reason. "I like treble" could be one, but it's not compensating for a loss of anything.

 

[music_4321]

 

[vwinter]

The scaling makes this a little misleading to me considering you would have to regraph the perceived to overlay them.

Edit: even though it was measured at the eardrum (assuming it's referring to the perceived), I'd still like to see a confidence interval based whatever number of people they used, since it's unlikely to get the same response in subjects, and the difference can be significant.

 

[gnarlsagan]

The scaling makes this a little misleading to me considering you would have to regraph the perceived to overlay them.

Edit: even though it was measured at the eardrum (assuming it's referring to the perceived), I'd still like to see a confidence interval based whatever number of people they used, since it's unlikely to get the same response in subjects, and the difference can be significant.

This is true. HRTF definitely varies between people. How much seems to be a point of debate.

 

[music_4321]

This is true. HRTF definitely varies between people. How much seems to be a point of debate.

 
Thankfully not between sparrows, so no such debate in our species.

 

[luisdent]

All of these things are helpful in understanding an earphone, but my ultimate goal has always been to get the closest thing possible to a flat studio monitor speaker in my ear.  The er4s is that conclusion.  Bass is different in earphones and so far there has been no way around that.  Ear acoustics change with a sealed in ear system as well.  So ultimately, I want something that "sounds" the same whether these things are true or not.
 
With the bass issue, I find I had to simply get over that fact.  Now that I am (somewhat) over it, I can enjoy something like the er4s immensely.  I've listened to a large number of high-end universal iems, and in every single case where there was bass boosted or treble or any region (based on any graphs) I've found the sound to be unfaithful to a studio monitor.  Because any boosted bass masks other frequencies making things sound less open and realistic.  Yes, boosting the bass "might" impress some people with a more speaker like sound, but at the cost of that realistic overall sound and masking other areas.
 
I won't go into every single detail and area of sound, but basically you get my goal.  When I listen to the er4s, I hear the open, clear, realistic, reference sound that you get with a flat studio monitor speaker.  They do need a slight sub bass boost to sound "perfect", but that's pretty good compared to most.  They aren't perfect, but they're the closest thing to it for my ears.
 
The ie800 sound pretty good, but I've heard $150 earphones I think sound better such as the pfe112.  The ie800 is just missing too much in the lower treble region for me.  With eq they sound great, but there's still an issue with the tips for me.  The mesh screens keep them from sitting fully and comfortably in my ears without a lot of hassle.  Moving them literally cuts out all sound and I have to move them again to bring it back.  I'm not sure what causes this, but it only seems to be affected by the tips being "squeezed" into my ears to a certain point.  This happened with all sizes.  So ultimately, they just aren't for me.  Horrible microphonics, tip issues and scooped out lower treble just aren't worth $1000 to me.  Especially when I get what I consider to be near perfect with none of those issues for $300, or even $150 with the pfe112.
 
I think value is with the ears of the listener.  If you love the sound of an iem, does it matter if it costs more than something else?  No.  Buy what you like if it's within your budget.  However, I see absolutely no technical reason they should cost over three times the price of the er4s.  Sennheiser is a very well known name in audio gear, and they didn't break any new ground or change nay technologies.  The pfe232 sounds similar but better in my opinion, and that was $600, but could regularly be bought for $450 on some sites.  Just saying, to each his own, but I would place them in more of a $200-300 bracket.  Unfortunately, I don't see them going that low any time soon, if ever.

 

[luisdent]

For anyone using a fuze v2 with their er4s I just created two themes!  Woohoo!
 
http://handtokey.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-sansa-fuze-v2-themes.html