Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
May 23, 2021 at 6:33 PM Post #13,696 of 18,518
PGGB transient timing was a mess even compared to Hugo 2, as hand clapping, bow strikes, guitar plucks, drum strikes, etc. In fact, to me, PGGB apodizing upsampling at 44.1kHz is unlistenable because of the transient timing issue.
My impression is exactly the opposite of yours. I’ve been quite blown away by the transient timing of my PGGB-processed 44.1k. So much so that my M-Scaler has been sitting unused.

Earlier today I listened to Sangam by Charles Lloyd. This features Zakir Hussain on tabla. Drums and tabla come closest I’ve heard to sounding like the real thing - particularly in the area of rise and fall time. M-Scaler worked wonders with this track but PGGB as configured takes it to another level entirely.

A key point here is that PGGB is configurable. It is possible to aim for a more dense presentation. This can alter the perceived time domain performance - similar to the filter settings provided by Chord with their DACs.

There very well could be shortcomings with PGGB, but transient response is not one of them. It’s actually its greatest strength IMHO - and profoundly so with 44.1k. I’m a drummer so lifelike reproduction of drums and percussion has always been the most important area of musical reproduction to me. It’s exactly what lead me to Chord DACs and ultimately the M-Scaler. I think time domain performance is something Chord owners have come to feel is essential to making music sound real. That we would suddenly abandon this to jump on PGGB (while still retaining our Chord DACs) seems preposterous.

Where PGGB is truly a miracle-worker is with DSD. A billion taps can actually restore timing - at least to my ears.
 
May 24, 2021 at 6:53 AM Post #13,697 of 18,518
Why do we always have to keep ‘chasing the dragon’? Why can’t we just be content?

I’m just listening to some tunes with my HMS/TT2, and TBH I can’t imagine it getting any better than this. Well, that’s within the limitations that my entry-level Linn Majik power amps & speakers pose to my personal appreciation.

Sometimes I just think we should relax and enjoy the music! :beyersmile:
 
May 24, 2021 at 7:30 AM Post #13,698 of 18,518
Why do we always have to keep ‘chasing the dragon’? Why can’t we just be content?

I’m just listening to some tunes with my HMS/TT2, and TBH I can’t imagine it getting any better than this. Well, that’s within the limitations that my entry-level Linn Majik power amps & speakers pose to my personal appreciation.

Sometimes I just think we should relax and enjoy the music! :beyersmile:

@kelly200269 very valid and crucial point. I'm traveling right now and instead of my desktop setup I have a Mojo with me and love it. Some tend to forget about the music in this ill-fated chase. For me, it is the music that really counts and if you like upsampling there are some many options even for simple Mojo when you are on the go... Obviously I love Mojo SQ and signature but it only aids my enjoyment while I know I could get something better at my desk back at home :)

Enjoy your favorite tracks mates! Listen for a joy more instead of trying to identify all those subtle (and often subjective) differences in SQ.
 
May 24, 2021 at 7:43 AM Post #13,699 of 18,518
My impression is exactly the opposite of yours. I’ve been quite blown away by the transient timing of my PGGB-processed 44.1k. So much so that my M-Scaler has been sitting unused.

Earlier today I listened to Sangam by Charles Lloyd. This features Zakir Hussain on tabla. Drums and tabla come closest I’ve heard to sounding like the real thing - particularly in the area of rise and fall time. M-Scaler worked wonders with this track but PGGB as configured takes it to another level entirely.

A key point here is that PGGB is configurable. It is possible to aim for a more dense presentation. This can alter the perceived time domain performance - similar to the filter settings provided by Chord with their DACs.

There very well could be shortcomings with PGGB, but transient response is not one of them. It’s actually its greatest strength IMHO - and profoundly so with 44.1k. I’m a drummer so lifelike reproduction of drums and percussion has always been the most important area of musical reproduction to me. It’s exactly what lead me to Chord DACs and ultimately the M-Scaler. I think time domain performance is something Chord owners have come to feel is essential to making music sound real. That we would suddenly abandon this to jump on PGGB (while still retaining our Chord DACs) seems preposterous.

Where PGGB is truly a miracle-worker is with DSD. A billion taps can actually restore timing - at least to my ears.
Thanks ,I just listened to the YT version of Sangam and have to say :THAT is an album I just HAVE to buy on cd asap.
Amazing music and performance!
Great recommendation!

And YT also suggested another interesting album with Ahmad Jamal .Do you feel the same about PGGB with piano as well?


The only test tracks with percussion ,non classical, I have so far, are the 16/44.1 Jim Byrnes track Nick sent me and the original analogue PGGB´d from DSD 128 first track on the album Suryodaya which also has got some amazing and VERY realistic tabla sounds both Mscaled and PGGB´d or "Gargleblasted" as some prefer to say.

I can´t say I hear much of a difference between Mscaled and PGGB with those two, BUT both sound CLEARLY better and more realistic than played natively via my humble Qutest.

My impression of PGGB so far with only 4 short test tracks, is that there isn´t ,or rather, I can´t really hear any BIG difference between my Mscaler and PGGB. But it has been very interesting to hear my Qutest sound THAT good without the Mscaler connected.

My guess and hope is that most future development and improvements in digital SQ will happen in software alternatives rather than via VERY expensive non upgradable FPGA paths.

I have GREAT respect for the results Rob is getting and has delivered with Mscaler.
Mscaler basically changed my opinion of digital.

But I wish he would offer his expertise not only to those few who can afford the imho VERY expensive FPGA based hardware only option he has presented.

If more than 1M taps do matter for SQ with hi res or even with 16/44.1? and judging from PGGB they may very well do so, my Mscaler will eventually become another very expensive, redundant Chord product like my old Hugo 1.

I would really like to hear what Rob can do with software based pre-upscaled over locked in hardware,as well.

The fact that my old 17" MBP from 2011 can play both Mscaled and PGGB with quite similar results is very promising for me.
I may even buy a cheap but capable PC just to do PGGB processing as an option to buying yet another also very expensive MBP.
I hate the fact that one always has to pay much more to get the same performance as with pc´s just because someone has taken "a bite at the apple"?

But both my old MBP´s have also been my work-horses as a photographer so they have more than earned their keep, and also been great with Mscaler and now also work with, the newest kid on the block, PGGB.

Cheers CC
 
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May 24, 2021 at 7:53 AM Post #13,700 of 18,518
Why do we always have to keep ‘chasing the dragon’? Why can’t we just be content?

I’m just listening to some tunes with my HMS/TT2, and TBH I can’t imagine it getting any better than this. Well, that’s within the limitations that my entry-level Linn Majik power amps & speakers pose to my personal appreciation.

Sometimes I just think we should relax and enjoy the music! :beyersmile:
You have got a good point there, Mscaler is very good indeed,but I would also very MUCH like to travel again with mscaled quality SQ without having to lug around as much weight and valuable items as before.
Mscaling future development, sounded very promising from Rob a few years ago at Canjam Singapore. But as far as I know there will NOT be a Hugo 3 or Qutest 2 with an mscaler onboard for a long time if ever, so this or other software options may come in handy for me personally if I am allowed to get out of Sweden over winter as I used to for most of my adult life, before Covid hit..
This past winter was tough enough, I don´t want another one like it, if I can avoid it.
Cheers CC
 
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May 24, 2021 at 11:56 AM Post #13,703 of 18,518
Why do we always have to keep ‘chasing the dragon’? Why can’t we just be content?

I’m just listening to some tunes with my HMS/TT2, and TBH I can’t imagine it getting any better than this. Well, that’s within the limitations that my entry-level Linn Majik power amps & speakers pose to my personal appreciation.

Sometimes I just think we should relax and enjoy the music! :beyersmile:

Achieving that for yourself is easy. Just take a break from forums like this. No need to stay plugged into the discussions if you are enjoying the music

As far as the pursuit of better sound - this is an optional endeavor. No one has to keep “chasing the dragon”. It shouldn’t be a “have to” - it should be a “want to”. I want to continue the pursuit because it’s enjoyable. I’m having fun with this stuff.

But I have also unplugged from some topics as I feel I’m done in those areas. Speakers and amps are two areas and I guess a third is DACs as I love my TT2 and will be sticking with it for quite some time. Eventually I’ll replace it with a DAVE, but I am in no rush to do that. I am relaxing and enjoying the music - but also enjoying making some occasional improvements along the way. I’m having more fun with this hobby than ever.
 
May 24, 2021 at 7:06 PM Post #13,704 of 18,518
I’m trying the demo of audirvana with kernel streaming on a decent spec normal enough pc, it feels like a much clearer improvement over roon (and only £60 a year). There is much more depth, it feels like I’m more enveloped in the music. Tom waits is lifelike... if he wasn’t already. Heart attack and vine.. the user interface is a bit unfamiliar, clunky. I worry about missing roon radio but I’m not sure if it has a decent radio type function or not.
Also imagining I notice, the bass is more rumbly, like it would be live. Listening to a live orb album.
 
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May 25, 2021 at 12:09 AM Post #13,705 of 18,518
I’m trying the demo of audirvana with kernel streaming on a decent spec normal enough pc, it feels like a much clearer improvement over roon (and only £60 a year). There is much more depth, it feels like I’m more enveloped in the music. Tom waits is lifelike... if he wasn’t already. Heart attack and vine.. the user interface is a bit unfamiliar, clunky. I worry about missing roon radio but I’m not sure if it has a decent radio type function or not.
Also imagining I notice, the bass is more rumbly, like it would be live. Listening to a live orb album.
Despite having paid for a Roon Lifetime subscription some time ago, I no longer use it in my main system because of what I hear as being less than the best sound quality. Instead I use iPeng on an Innuos or MPD on an Antipodes. Both have crappy interfaces compared to Roon but hey ho, that is life and the sound is more important to me. I have high hopes though for the new Innuos 2.0 app which looks as if it will offer similar functionality to Roon .

Unfortunately I cannot install Audirvana on my streamers but I have heard good things about it.
 
May 25, 2021 at 6:46 AM Post #13,706 of 18,518
Despite having paid for a Roon Lifetime subscription some time ago, I no longer use it in my main system because of what I hear as being less than the best sound quality. Instead I use iPeng on an Innuos or MPD on an Antipodes. Both have crappy interfaces compared to Roon but hey ho, that is life and the sound is more important to me. I have high hopes though for the new Innuos 2.0 app which looks as if it will offer similar functionality to Roon .

Unfortunately I cannot install Audirvana on my streamers but I have heard good things about it.
Material Skin is IMHO much better than OrangeSqueeze (is iPeng similar?) but obviously not as good as the Roon GUI
 
May 25, 2021 at 8:29 AM Post #13,707 of 18,518
Material Skin is IMHO much better than OrangeSqueeze (is iPeng similar?) but obviously not as good as the Roon GUI
Material Skin and iPeng seem pretty similar from a user point of view. Basic but functional.
 
May 25, 2021 at 10:47 AM Post #13,708 of 18,518
The allure of improved sound quality is too hard to resist. After all it has been said that 'after silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music'.:sunglasses: go figure...
 
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May 25, 2021 at 3:40 PM Post #13,709 of 18,518
Hi,

I‘m having an issue that I was wondering if anyone maybe able to help me with. I just got an M Scaler to go with my DAVE and the first 1-2 seconds of every track are skipped, though if I restart the track it will then play correctly (with the exception of the Aurender which still results in skipping of the first 2 seconds). This doesn’t occur with the DAVE alone. All of the sources I have are USB so that’s the only connection I’ve been able to test. I’ve used an Aurender N100H, a Macbook Pro, and a Windows 10 PC. I’m using high quality USB and BNC cables, so I don’t think they are the problem. I’ve tried dual BNC with both inputs 1&2 and 3&4.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 
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May 25, 2021 at 4:39 PM Post #13,710 of 18,518
I believe it’s your software setting music player. I had a similar issue with JRiver where some tracks would start milliseconds after they were supposed to. I can’t remember what the setting was at this moment but that’s what it was and it was solved easily.
 

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