[Amberlamps]

I do not own an M Scaler but am assuming that as you have been concerned about this issue for some weeks all connections between PC/M Scaler and Hugo are as they should be. Would it be worth starting with the source and sharing how you are sending music to the M Scaler ? Unless you have already done so what about playing some local files (ie ripped CD's/Downloads) through, say, JRiver. As 1)all the correct settings for JRiver and Windows Sound Settings are well known, 2) you can check that the correct Drivers are being used and 3)as it will report on what you are sending to the M Scaler in terms of sample and bitrate, you can at least be reassured all is corrrect at the source end of the playback chain. Apologies if, as is likely, you have already done something like this.

Source is my pc, Corsair Obsidian 800D case, Asus Z170 gaming mobo, i7 6700K, corsair vengeance 32GB ram, evga 680gtx classified vid card, samsung 850 500gb ssd, Corsair 256gb ssd, ocz summit 120gb x 2 ssd’s, 8 hdd’s, internal and external, logitech g910 keyboard and corsair m65 mouse, corsair ax1600i psu.

Software is windows 10 x64, Roon, tidal, qobuz and Jriver.

I have also tested via usb cable, my iphone directly into the mscaler playing hires files from qobuz and tidal using wifi and not cellular connection. Non airplay wired connection.

A couple of people have mentioned that they don’t hear a difference between 1 million taps and pass through, and I’m not saying anything bad about the mscaler. It clearly works, as this thread and the dave and blu ii thread is proof. It’s just I don’t know if my setup is wrong, which to be honest I don’t think it is, or maybe its something to do with the mscaler or my hugo, or maybe even me ?

I just don’t know if it was caused by me not using hugo for a while, and when I came back to it, maybe I was confusing the excellent sound of hugo as coming from the mscaler ?

I do remember that once when I was moving the mscaler and hugo, I disconnected the bnc cables and then plugged them back in, this time when I tried to test pass through, the music was not there, there was just silence, in order for me to hear the music, I had to select coax 1 on the remote.

I now have the cables arranged on the 3.5mm adapter so that I can go from 1 million taps on coax 2, to pass through and remain on coax 2, no drops in audio etc. The other 3.5mm arrangement means, when switching to pass through, you have to physically switch over to coax 1.

I really don’t know what to think, and I have a TT2 inbound. If what I’m hearing from the mscaler is all I’m gunna get, then I will probably cancel my TT2

What does everyone else think when going from 1 million taps to pass through, is there a change thats clearly heard, or is there barely if any change that you can hear ?

 

[aldavey]

Source is my pc, Corsair Obsidian 800D case, Asus Z170 gaming mobo, i7 6700K, corsair vengeance 32GB ram, evga 680gtx classified vid card, samsung 850 500gb ssd, Corsair 256gb ssd, ocz summit 120gb x 2 ssd’s, 8 hdd’s, internal and external, logitech g910 keyboard and corsair m65 mouse, corsair ax1600i psu.

Software is windows 10 x64, Roon, tidal, qobuz and Jriver.

I have also tested via usb cable, my iphone directly into the mscaler playing hires files from qobuz and tidal using wifi and not cellular connection. Non airplay wired connection.

A couple of people have mentioned that they don’t hear a difference between 1 million taps and pass through, and I’m not saying anything bad about the mscaler. It clearly works, as this thread and the dave and blu ii thread is proof. It’s just I don’t know if my setup is wrong, which to be honest I don’t think it is, or maybe its something to do with the mscaler or my hugo, or maybe even me ?

I just don’t know if it was caused by me not using hugo for a while, and when I came back to it, maybe I was confusing the excellent sound of hugo as coming from the mscaler ?

I do remember that once when I was moving the mscaler and hugo, I disconnected the bnc cables and then plugged them back in, this time when I tried to test pass through, the music was not there, there was just silence, in order for me to hear the music, I had to select coax 1 on the remote.

I now have the cables arranged on the 3.5mm adapter so that I can go from 1 million taps on coax 2, to pass through and remain on coax 2, no drops in audio etc. The other 3.5mm arrangement means, when switching to pass through, you have to physically switch over to coax 1.

I really don’t know what to think, and I have a TT2 inbound. If what I’m hearing from the mscaler is all I’m gunna get, then I will probably cancel my TT2

What does everyone else think when going from 1 million taps to pass through, is there a change thats clearly heard, or is there barely if any change that you can hear ?

Sorry for this dumb question. I've had HMS/TT2 for a couple of weeks. I started with just the TT2 and was not as enthusiastic as I had expected coming for Mojo/Poly and H2. I then connected the HMS and could clearly hear a major improvement in all aspects of the sound quality. My dumb question is: How do you select pass through? I've never bothered to do this as I just keep listening to the music.

 

[hken]

Sorry for this dumb question. I've had HMS/TT2 for a couple of weeks. I started with just the TT2 and was not as enthusiastic as I had expected coming for Mojo/Poly and H2. I then connected the HMS and could clearly hear a major improvement in all aspects of the sound quality. My dumb question is: How do you select pass through? I've never bothered to do this as I just keep listening to the music.

You can select pass through mode by pressing the OP SR button (3rd one on the left). When the light is in red, it is in pass through mode.

 

[danish71]

There is a problem that I’m unsure of, I don’t know whether it’s just my hearing, me doing something wrong or if my mscaler is broken.

What it is, is my inability to hear any difference from the white op sr ball which indicates 1 million taps, to pass through at 49k taps ala hugo’s taps.

This is how my system is setup.

I have the usb cable coming from my pc and going into the mscaler, and then from the mscaler to hugo it’s dual bnc and hugo acknowledges that it’s now in dual data bnc mode by showing a pale blue light. Mscaler shows a white ball for input and another white ball for op sr. On Hugo it’s set as coax 2.

When I listen to music and I jump back and forth between white op sr ball and passthrough, I just can’t hear any difference between them, not even the slightest of difference, and some others have mentioned the same thing.

Is my setup correct ? Am I doing something wrong ? Is it just me and some others hearing that can detect any change ? or is my mscaler not working properly.

I wanted to post this a week or two ago, but I had to give the mscaler a fair chance, but now that I have, why is there no detectable difference ( for me ) between passthrough mode, red op sr ball, and the white, 1 million taps op sr ball colour ?

To be honest with ya’s, now that I’ve had it for about a month, the changes I thought I heard, maybe they were all down to Hugo 2 since I hadn’t used it for ages.

Rob, this isn’t me trolling you or your work, it’s just me not knowing whats happening and why there is no audible changes that I can hear between 1 million taps or 49k taps on hugo.

I just want to know if I’m doing something wrong, or if my mscaler is not working properly. Can people who are using the mscaler and a hugo 2 post and let me know if passthrough sounds exactly the same as 1 million taps.

I will add, when I stopped listening to music for a couple of days, when I went back to it, the very first song sounded magic, really good, but this passthrough issue is making me think, was it really the mscaler or was it just hugo.

If anyone has a file that can easily show the difference between 1 million and passthrough, please hook me up so that I can try it for myself.

I have a Dave hooked up to an M Scaler, but your experience mirrors my experience 100%. I have been thinking of explanations to why it is so hard to hear a difference between full 1M taps and pass-through - I guess as an attempt to justify the purchase, in my case 2 M Scalers.
Some of my thoughts:
It may not be the best approach to toggle back and forth between the two modes within a single track, because maybe the qualities of the M Scaler do not reveal themselves in that way.
But several users have reported that 1M taps sound darker. That is not my experience and I am very sensitive to sound colors (warm, cold, dark, bright etc). I do hear more differences between cables than with 1M taps vs pass through in that regard.
Does the sense of tempo change with 1M taps? Well, that is impossible to detect if you toggle back an forth within one track. I think sense of tempo and flow needs to be experienced with a larger piece of music, and the exact same piece of music needs to be used for comparison. But being honest, I don't experience that kind of difference.
More bass with 1M taps? Not to my ears.
I do think to experience a difference in terms of 1M taps sounding more "open" and "free" than pass-through with certain tracks, and that is mainly with acoustical music. Maybe acoustical cues are better heard with the 1M taps? But I am not sure that I could successfully pass a blind test and pick the right mode even 80% of the time.
I have realized that performing listening tests is SO extremely difficult, because the perceived sound is heavily affected by emotional and physical state, and listening for differences between A and B is challenged by our appallingly bad auditory memory. A very strong will to hear differences also clutters your ability to hear any, I guess.

 

[seaice]

With Dave and my headphone setups and I can clearly distinguish 1M and other taps. I have been switching it via the OP SR button and the change to 1M is more or less distinct - the SQ effect depends on the source being played. When 1M is activated, it is quite "substantial" sometimes.

 

[naynay]

Some of these latest comments are a little concerning seeing as i have just Purchased M Scaler being delivered today without having a listen first?
Hope these issues are setup related?

 

[aldavey]

OK, I've now tried pass through and there is a subtle difference, but not nearly as much as I originally thought so I'm now confused. I lived with TT2 for a little before introducing the HMS and thought HMS made a huge difference, now not so sure.

 

[Triode User]

OK, I've now tried pass through and there is a subtle difference, but not nearly as much as I originally thought so I'm now confused. I lived with TT2 for a little before introducing the HMS and thought HMS made a huge difference, now not so sure.

Instead of pass through, try taking the HMS out of the system (ie completely disconnect it and power it down). Then connect your DAC direct to the source. Do you get the same subtle difference or is there a bigger difference?

 

[danish71]

I really don’t know what to think, and I have a TT2 inbound. If what I’m hearing from the mscaler is all I’m gunna get, then I will probably cancel my TT2

What does everyone else think when going from 1 million taps to pass through, is there a change thats clearly heard, or is there barely if any change that you can hear ?

I don't see why you should cancel your order on the TT2. The quality of the DAC is fundamental. The M Scaler is not a DAC, so it is like comparing oranges to apples.

 

[ZappaMan]

I wonder whether Hd800s are making it harder to perceive the toggle diff, because of their already artificial large soundstage / could be making any changes there hard to detect.

For those that do detect change, can they identify their chain/source material so others can try their steps, as so many potential variables.

 

[Whazzzup]

I wonder whether Hd800s are making it harder to perceive the toggle diff, because of their already artificial large soundstage / could be making any changes there hard to detect.

For those that do detect change, can they identify their chain/source material so others can try their steps, as so many potential variables.

doubt it, antipodes DX did a wonderful job on hd800S.. now what I will state is even tho I still get the wow, I have become used to better sq. But this seems like something else

 

[thePhones]

What I noticed is that the differences you can hear in terms of musicality that the M scaler brings is more obvious with worse headphones or speakers. I think this is because if you like transparency and your system is already very transparent, for example with Hugo 2 and HD800 you will find it already pretty good sounding. With worse speakers and headphones it becomes even more important that it sounds at least very musical. But only think about what I just said if your source is 100% bit perfect.

 

[Amberlamps]

I have a Dave hooked up to an M Scaler, but your experience mirrors my experience 100%. I have been thinking of explanations to why it is so hard to hear a difference between full 1M taps and pass-through - I guess as an attempt to justify the purchase, in my case 2 M Scalers.
Some of my thoughts:
It may not be the best approach to toggle back and forth between the two modes within a single track, because maybe the qualities of the M Scaler do not reveal themselves in that way.
But several users have reported that 1M taps sound darker. That is not my experience and I am very sensitive to sound colors (warm, cold, dark, bright etc). I do hear more differences between cables than with 1M taps vs pass through in that regard.
Does the sense of tempo change with 1M taps? Well, that is impossible to detect if you toggle back an forth within one track. I think sense of tempo and flow needs to be experienced with a larger piece of music, and the exact same piece of music needs to be used for comparison. But being honest, I don't experience that kind of difference.
More bass with 1M taps? Not to my ears.
I do think to experience a difference in terms of 1M taps sounding more "open" and "free" than pass-through with certain tracks, and that is mainly with acoustical music. Maybe acoustical cues are better heard with the 1M taps? But I am not sure that I could successfully pass a blind test and pick the right mode even 80% of the time.
I have realized that performing listening tests is SO extremely difficult, because the perceived sound is heavily affected by emotional and physical state, and listening for differences between A and B is challenged by our appallingly bad auditory memory. A very strong will to hear differences also clutters your ability to hear any, I guess.

It’s good to hear that I’m not the only one, and I’m in no shape or form attacking the mscaler or Rob and Chords work, I’m just curious asto why the pass through mode doesn’t sound different from the 1 million taps mode. Or if it does sound different it’s very hard to detect.

When I first read about the mscaler and how in blu mk ii it made music come alive, I was hooked, I read review after review and when Chord mentioned that they were releasing one, I jumped on the bandwagon.

I was originally going to buy TT2 first, but the fact that I could get better than dave sound with an mscaler and my hugo 2, I was smitten.

When I can be bothered I will test hugo on it’s own, and again with the mscaler in the loop. Hopefully when I try hugo on it’s own, hopefully it will become more obvious that the mscaler is doing alot of processing, however, if thats the case, whats up with pass through ?

I’m pleased that I’m not the only one who has noticed this, as it lends credence to the passthrough problem not being an isolated case.

No doubt we will figure it out and get back up and running.

 

[Triode User]

I wonder whether Hd800s are making it harder to perceive the toggle diff, because of their already artificial large soundstage / could be making any changes there hard to detect.

For those that do detect change, can they identify their chain/source material so others can try their steps, as so many potential variables.

In the interests of research, and nothing at all to do with me wanting to be distracted from doing some work, I have just spent 15 minutes using the remote to toggle between output sample rates of (in order that they toggle through using the remote) high / pass through/ low / medium. The difference to my ears is clear and very distinct between each of the output sample rates.

I am listening to the album Convergance by Malia and I am playing a ripped version stored on my Innuos SE which streamed over my LAN to an Auralic Aries which inputs to the HMS via Supra USB 2.0 cable. The HMS is outputting to my Dave via WAVE Stream BNC cables and the Dave is fed direct into ATC SCM150ASL active speakers via Canare L-4E6S star quad XLR cables.

I have no idea why some people are reporting subtle or no differences between the output rates of HMS because that is very far from my previous experience and is very far from what I have just heard again just now. It is the same difference I hear when I use the output toggle switch at the back of the Blu Mk2.

If you are thinking of buying an HMS or have one on order, do not panic. The magic factor has not stopped working and there must be some other rational explanation on other systems.

 

[burbster]

I listen to my Mscaler/Dave almost exclusively via loudspeakers, but the difference the HMS makes varies from noticeable to transformational. Very surprised at some of the comments here that they cannot tell a difference, very strange and certainly not my experience. However I have posted before that with certain tracks, most of my DSDs for example, the difference is less pronounced.

On a slightly different note I have a query/question for the more technically minded people here, maybe even #Rob Watts himself could offer an opinion. If my very basic understanding is correct (it is probably not!) , providing we sample an analogue signal at twice the rate of the highest frequency within that signal, theoretically (assuming a perfect DAC) we can perfectly reconstruct that waveform, as contrary to popular belief the waveform between sample points IS knowable. The only limiting factor is the 16 bits we allocate to give a finite value to each sample. The MScaler, using its 1M taps is able to reconstruct a 16bit 44.1kHz waveform perfectly (accepting any errors imposed by using only 16 bits to quantize the original signal)

If this is indeed the case are we saying that the future of Hi Res music lies in increased Bit length rather than increased sample rate? As the increased sample rate is only confirming what the MSCaler can already work out, the only way the signal can be 'improved' is by increasing the number of bits allocated to represent each sample point. Taking this further, are we also saying that any future MScaler2 with lets say 2 million taps, would then require at least a 24bit file in order to make use of those taps? (as 1million taps resolves the wave form to 16 bit accuracy)