Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
May 17, 2021 at 3:38 PM Post #13,651 of 18,534
It still the way I listen to music. I pick one Album that I like and listen to it from start to finish, the Albums from Nils Fram for example😍
Don‘t even have play lists, everything is handpicked, like the old days😃. I use Qobuz by the way...
I like your ways! This reminds me of the time I showed some young folks a floppy disk, they thought I 3D printed a save button. I hope Albums won't go away like this in history of music, youngsters only knowing playlists and songs.
 
May 17, 2021 at 3:50 PM Post #13,652 of 18,534
Yes, at the moment I come out of the second 2960 with an AQ vodka Ethernet straight into antipodes. are You thinking ether regen? Or something similar?
Sorry, need to read more thoroughly before I answer, actual answer is no to optical straight to antipodes, it has a wired Ethernet input only. Second 2960 is in effect just acting like a media converter.
 
May 17, 2021 at 4:00 PM Post #13,653 of 18,534
Yes, at the moment I come out of the second 2960 with an AQ vodka Ethernet straight into antipodes. are You thinking ether regen? Or something similar?

I have to declare having a horse in this race with our ENO filter, so i cant really make a truly impartial recommendation as to what product you should choose.

Its a great to have a dedicated switch acting as a buffer between the the router and streamer, even better with quiet power supplies, but unfortunately no matter how good the switch is, anything in the chain with mains connection will emit noise of its own which then piggy backs the onward data stream
 
May 17, 2021 at 7:00 PM Post #13,654 of 18,534
It is going to be interesting to see how streaming changes the industry, from perspective of what music gets created - albums or singles. Since the incentive is on songs played, it is more impactful for an artist to create a hit song, than a full album, as a hit song is more likely to get recommended / shared / picked up by an algorithm. I wish it wasn’t this way and services would recommend to us albums more, as I remember times when I was listening to a CD end to end - felt like experiencing the art as the artist intended.
Well, I made a left turn in my career and decided to get into artist/band management (music industry) around a decade ago after being in the musical instruments industry for two decades. I was also managing a record label and it looked promising - until streaming started taking off. When I started out, it was about overseeing the production of the artists' albums from tracking to mastering, then the packaging, CD production and, finally, distribution direct from the artists' sites and through distributors selling to CD stores, including mass merchandisers like Walmart and Amazon, etc. Then, I'd set up the albums and tracks for downloads on iTunes and, finally, for streaming.

Around a decade ago, CD sales were still fairly strong. If I divided up sales by channel/media, then it was around 50% CD, 45% downloads (mainly iTunes, now Apple Music), and only 5% by streaming. By around 2016, streaming revenues had grown 10-fold but both CD and downloads sales plummeted dramatically to well below half of their peak sales. And, of course, even a 10-fold increase in streaming revenues could not even come close to making up for the lost CD/download sales. It was a depressing thing to observe for me as well as the musicians.

I saw the writing on the wall and decided I needed to get out of the music making industry and get back to what I know and have experience in: the guitar and musical instruments industry. There was no hope whatsoever making a living selling music. The only way for original music artists and bands to make a living is to tour and sell CDs and other merchandise like T-shirts, etc. I'm not talking about mega pop stars who have various other avenues to rake in money but working musicians and band members in rock, metal, fusion, and jazz genres which have all become sort of "underground" and are, generally speaking, no longer considered "mainstream" like pop, hip hop, and dance-oriented genres.

Musicians obviously hate the streaming business model and are distraught over it but they are powerless to really do anything about it. That's just become the reality. Basically, an artist/band gets paid something like $0.00001 per stream although that will vary a bit between different services. Their best shot is at building enough of a hardcore following that will actually buy the CDs and download but that is extremely hard to do. I feel very sorry for the great majority of the musicians. Working in this industry, I deal with world class musicians all the time and it's a struggle for them to keep a roof over their heads and put food on the table - especially in genres like prog rock, metal, fusion and jazz who are the ones I deal with the most. And, of course, the pandemic was a double whammy because they couldn't go out and perform or sell merchandise on tours.

I have read a lot of biographies of musicians (ranging from the great classical composers to jazz giants and rock legends) and quite a few are rather tragic stories. And these stories are of immortal legends whose music have lived on for centuries and will continue to do so for as long as humanity exists. I suppose that's the consolation in that their names and their creations will live on and that this is what every serious aspiring artist/musician hopes to achieve, no matter how bad the reality gets. I see them in my line of work all the time and some of them are good friends. Sometimes I can't help but recall that famous Hunter Thompson quote about the music industry:

“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”
 
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May 17, 2021 at 7:20 PM Post #13,655 of 18,534
It‘s still the way I listen to music. I pick one Album that I like and listen to it from start to finish, the Albums from Nils Fram for example😍
Don‘t even have playlists, everything is handpicked, like the old days😃. I use Qobuz by the way...
I'm relatively new to the streaming world. I waited until lossless/Hi-Res became available on a wide scale and then finally decided last year that Qobuz would fit my needs the best since I could still buy/download albums. That was the clincher for me. Streaming is great for discovering new music but I still prefer to buy, download and own the music I really like. Also, to me, downloaded lossless/Hi-Res files in my local library sound better than streamed files. I've noticed this on both the Mac and the iPhone. Even if I don't outright buy albums or tracks, I download for offline and listen to it that way as I can't stand the occasional skips and stops.

I also discover new music the old-fashioned way - reading music magazines/books/articles and getting recommendations from musician friends whom I really respect and trust. Then it's really easy to make the connections to other similar artists, genres, styles, etc. Never would I trust what algorithms tell me to try. Most of the time, I pretty much ignore the recommendations that pop up since I already have a very long list of things I need or want to listen to.

I'm also a big Nils Frahm fan. I love that whole 'neoclassical' genre of combining classical elements with modern ambient electronic soundscapes and technologies and methods. I also prefer listening to entire albums from start to finish but I do have many dozens of playlists categorized by genres, moods, eras, styles, etc. I have a few playlists for working out at the gym, for example, and some for my daily hikes around the local mountains. Some are wildly eclectic and I call those playlists 'Eclectic 01' and so on. They would combine all classical genres, jazz, pop, classic rock, metal, fusion, world, new age, EDM, soundtracks, ambient electronic, hip hop, etc. and I would play them in a shuffle during the 2-hour hikes. So it'd go from something like a Bach fugue to John Coltrane to Meshuggah to the Beatles to Prince to St. Vincent, etc. and I love it and since I love them all. :L3000:
 
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May 18, 2021 at 9:41 AM Post #13,656 of 18,534
Since the incentive is on songs played, it is more impactful for an artist to create a hit song, than a full album, as a hit song is more likely to get recommended / shared / picked up by an algorithm.
But also it is the case that in the days of cd many artists actually struggled to fill a cd with decent music - there are an awful lot of CDs with a couple of good tracks and a lot of padding. Even the transition from a 30/40 minute vinyl album to a 70 minute cd challenged many musicians. So it’s not necessarily a bad thing that popular music focuses on a track again. When I was a lad, pop music was all about singles on 3 minute 45rpm discs, and there were jukeboxes in bars which you could program with a playlist. There was some pretty good music.
 
May 18, 2021 at 2:55 PM Post #13,657 of 18,534
Also, to me, downloaded lossless/Hi-Res files in my local library sound better than streamed files.
I can not hear a difference between streamed and bought/downloaded music. But I only listen with USB-Audio Player pro on android, which is also the only app where I can not here a negative effect with standard EQ (not the add on you have to buy) . All other EQs like with JRiver sound to me like they add harshness. Maybe there is something special with that android app (except having low power), but I love it for that fact. I need my EQ, I need it, really!😄
 
May 18, 2021 at 4:47 PM Post #13,658 of 18,534
For anyone who’s worried about the mscaler’s prowess with electronica.. The depth and pace it brings is making this already amazing new album from Skee Mask sound truly spine tingling :):)
 
May 18, 2021 at 5:08 PM Post #13,659 of 18,534
Try as I have over the last hour or so, but I struggle to hear any describable difference between the MScaler in bypass mode and anything up to 192K.

I am unable to use 768K because any slight movement in or around the MScaler/TT2 causes glitching and audio cutouts, I know this is down to the BNC cables/connection..

I wasn't expecting night and day, but surely there should be some detectable difference, or could it be how I have it set up?

There isn't too much to it that I can see, but the input is on White (USB), Video is off.

My chain is currently:

Laptop > Roon & Tidal HIFI (Wasapi) > USB > MScaler > stock dual BNC > TT2 > 6.35mm > HifiMan Susvara
 
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May 18, 2021 at 8:24 PM Post #13,660 of 18,534
I am unable to use 768K because any slight movement in or around the MScaler/TT2 causes glitching and audio cutouts, I know this is down to the BNC cables/connection..

Laptop > Roon & Tidal HIFI (Wasapi) > USB > MScaler > stock dual BNC > TT2 > 6.35mm > HifiMan
I wonder if you have an optical cable for your A&K SP1000 to feed the M-Scaler. You really should be able to play 768K without all the audio glitches. And you shouldn’t have your USB connected to the M-Scaler when you’re testing with the A&K SP1000.
Another option is to make sure your laptop is running off battery and not plugged into the wall, that it is running off Wi-Fi and not connected via an Ethernet cable. If you have to use an Ethernet cable, it shouldn’t be shielded.

Because usually, these types of glitching usually suggest there is ground loop RF noise leaking from the laptop into the M-Scaler and then into TT2. So even if you don’t hear the glitches at 192kHz, you’re probably still degrading the M-Scaler and TT2 sound.
 
May 19, 2021 at 4:00 AM Post #13,661 of 18,534
I wonder if you have an optical cable for your A&K SP1000 to feed the M-Scaler. You really should be able to play 768K without all the audio glitches. And you shouldn’t have your USB connected to the M-Scaler when you’re testing with the A&K SP1000.
Another option is to make sure your laptop is running off battery and not plugged into the wall, that it is running off Wi-Fi and not connected via an Ethernet cable. If you have to use an Ethernet cable, it shouldn’t be shielded.

Because usually, these types of glitching usually suggest there is ground loop RF noise leaking from the laptop into the M-Scaler and then into TT2. So even if you don’t hear the glitches at 192kHz, you’re probably still degrading the M-Scaler and TT2 sound.

Based on your post, I have added my Ropieee RoonBridge into my chain, taking away any direct connection to my laptop. And for sure, the glitching is a lot less, whereas a slight movement or vibration on my desk would cause breakup, it doesnt anymore. If I touch the BNC cables, the glitching is back, obvs I wont be doing that ordinarily.

I am still very disappointed that I simply am unable to hear any audible difference from when the MScaler is in bypass, to 768K. For the many posts and reviews I have read praising the MScaler to high heaven, to me this feels like little more than snakeoil at the moment. It makes me think it must be a setup issue, as surely there should be *some* difference..?

*Update - I reseated the BNC cables, and moved the TT2 away from the wall a bit as someone suggested earlier, so that the cables 'hang' more freely from the edge of the desk, and I am now able to work at my desk without the glitches. If I touch the BNC ports, it cuts sound straight away. I wonder if this is something that can be resolved by better BNC cables, but I am not wanting to spend 100s if at all possible.
 
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May 19, 2021 at 6:21 AM Post #13,662 of 18,534
Based on your post, I have added my Ropieee RoonBridge into my chain, taking away any direct connection to my laptop. And for sure, the glitching is a lot less, whereas a slight movement or vibration on my desk would cause breakup, it doesnt anymore. If I touch the BNC cables, the glitching is back, obvs I wont be doing that ordinarily.

I am still very disappointed that I simply am unable to hear any audible difference from when the MScaler is in bypass, to 768K. For the many posts and reviews I have read praising the MScaler to high heaven, to me this feels like little more than snakeoil at the moment. It makes me think it must be a setup issue, as surely there should be *some* difference..?

*Update - I reseated the BNC cables, and moved the TT2 away from the wall a bit as someone suggested earlier, so that the cables 'hang' more freely from the edge of the desk, and I am now able to work at my desk without the glitches. If I touch the BNC ports, it cuts sound straight away. I wonder if this is something that can be resolved by better BNC cables, but I am not wanting to spend 100s if at all possible.

Please don't quote me because I don't have M-Scaler.

I have however seen a lot of posts saying, moving away from the supplied BNC cables solved that issue. Loads of folk grumbled about the shipped cables.

Still might be wise to wait for someone who fixed this issue to post though, to be sure.
 
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May 19, 2021 at 9:22 PM Post #13,664 of 18,534
I'll suggest something and maybe makes no sense so feel free to completely ignore it but I think volume matching the comparison (just clicking the button back and forth) hurts the impact of the m scaler because the m scaler can let me listen louder without experiencing fatigue. My ears get really sensitive to fatigue if I listen up to a certain point volume wise I feel fine but if I go a bit above it I get fatigue quickly and things just start sounding harsh and degrades quickly and it's reliable down to the click on a volume if I go one over I can tell. What I have found with a lot of the fine tuning with batteries etc is that it helps with this fatigue so I can listen louder before it starts to trigger this and I feel the same with the m scaler so I think by A/B the upscaling at the same volume you are kind of missing out on one of the main benefits of the m scaler which is I feel you can listen more comfortably at higher volumes and to add to that if you listen at higher volume the soundstage increases the dynamics increase things are more engaging and easier to discern detail. If I listen to the m scaler over time I'm likely to slowly bump this volume up and see these benefits but if I just sit there and A/B at the same volume I may not pick up this difference.

No clue if this is what is happening but it's just something I noticed with the m scaler and basically what was happening was I was used to the higher volume and I clicked to turn off the m scaler just to hear the difference and it basically started the fatigue instantly. If you switch to the m scaler my theory is you should be able to turn the volume up a couple more clicks and the music is just as fatiguing as a couple clicks down was without the m scaler but you get all of the benefits of listening at a louder volume which matches with what a lot of people say the benefits of the m scaler are. So I guess my theory is maybe it isn't some difference in what some people can hear it's some people over time being able to listen louder more comfortably and hearing the benefits of that and direct A/B at the same volume not really revealing this.
 
May 20, 2021 at 8:41 AM Post #13,665 of 18,534
Based on your post, I have added my Ropieee RoonBridge into my chain, taking away any direct connection to my laptop. And for sure, the glitching is a lot less, whereas a slight movement or vibration on my desk would cause breakup, it doesnt anymore. If I touch the BNC cables, the glitching is back, obvs I wont be doing that ordinarily.

I am still very disappointed that I simply am unable to hear any audible difference from when the MScaler is in bypass, to 768K. For the many posts and reviews I have read praising the MScaler to high heaven, to me this feels like little more than snakeoil at the moment. It makes me think it must be a setup issue, as surely there should be *some* difference..?

*Update - I reseated the BNC cables, and moved the TT2 away from the wall a bit as someone suggested earlier, so that the cables 'hang' more freely from the edge of the desk, and I am now able to work at my desk without the glitches. If I touch the BNC ports, it cuts sound straight away. I wonder if this is something that can be resolved by better BNC cables, but I am not wanting to spend 100s if at all possible.
I remember a few years back attending a chord demo in a function room in Swansea. They set up a system, Dave and Mscaler feeding into their, at the time, statement preamps and mono blocks, (didnt use DAVE as a pre-amp) driving a pair of KEF blades. The rep actually said, ‘ I will be switching the mscaler in and out, if you can’t hear a difference don’t worry, you are lucky it will save you £3500’ obviously a little tongue in cheek, but there was a percentage of the audience that could not hear a difference. This all led me to believe that certain people are simply not sensitive to what the mscaler brings?

As it happens I could, and still do, hear a difference with the MScaler, I think trying to quantify how much difference something makes to SQ is so difficult, but it made a big enough difference to me to not save the £3500! In my case, I do now use Wave cables, but I did hear an improvement and bought the Mscaler on the strength of hearing it in my system with the stock 'free' BNC cables.

Also, I do seem to remember earlier on in this forum, there was talk about the bypass switch not being the same as taking the Mscaler entirely out of the chain?? It sounds strange, but I am sure there were people saying they could not hear a difference in bypass mode but when they removed MScaler completely from the chain they could??
 

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