[Gadget67]

Good man, helping out...

How about now trying your M Scaler in his system? And if still nada, then have him listen to your M Scaler in your system and see if he immediately hears the difference as you do.

This probably is the best test. I am extremely pleased with my TT2/M-Scaler combination but I’m going to spend some time listening with the M-Scaler totally disconnected from my system just out of curiosity.

 

[new2mus]

I've done this feeding the QuTest from both mscaler (CDplayer via Toslink) and CDplayer directly (via SPDIf).
Same signal from same source for both. No soundstage (or any other) difference.
I just don't get it..

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant switching your MScaler with another MScaler to see any difference. Also, I totally sympathize with your frustration. I understand when something should or is expected to work a certain way and it just doesn't seem to. So, it just starts becoming a curiosity and a need to "solve the mystery." We've all been there ...

 

[griff500]

More listening and I'm finding that percussion is more realistic to my ears - a bit less harsh / more 'analogue', more depth and scale to the sound. I suspect I'll notice the differences more if I spend some days listening to the TT2. I do think the M-Scaler is a keeper with the TT2, at least in my system to my ears.

John is popping over with his M-Scaler. It will be interesting to see if he can detect differences with my speakers and if I can detect the same differences with his M-Scaler.

When I first tried the M-Scaler I thought it was more subtle than some people seem to say. Only after listening for some time did I find that the bypassed sound was significantly different and I suspect I am going through the same adjustment.

 

[Gadget67]

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant switching your MScaler with another MScaler to see any difference. Also, I totally sympathize with your frustration. I understand when something should or is expected to work a certain way and it just doesn't seem to. So, it just starts becoming a curiosity and a need to "solve the mystery." We've all been there ...

Yep! My wife usually runs to another room when I get in that mode…

 

[kelly200269]

More listening and I'm finding that percussion is more realistic to my ears - a bit less harsh / more 'analogue', more depth and scale to the sound. I suspect I'll notice the differences more if I spend some days listening to the TT2. I do think the M-Scaler is a keeper with the TT2, at least in my system to my ears.

John is popping over with his M-Scaler. It will be interesting to see if he can detect differences with my speakers and if I can detect the same differences with his M-Scaler.

When I first tried the M-Scaler I thought it was more subtle than some people seem to say. Only after listening for some time did I find that the bypassed sound was significantly different and I suspect I am going through the same adjustment.

I’ve always maintained that an M Scaler does not shows it’s true ‘metal’ in simple A-B comparisons.

You have to live with it. You need to STOP listening to the equipment, and just immerse yourself in the music. LISTEN to the music. And just immerse yourself in it.

The TT2 is just ‘crude’ and uncouth without the HMS. Once you use HMS, there’s no going back. But it takes some time to appreciate its nuances.

 

[Christer]

I’ve always maintained that an M Scaler does not shows it’s true ‘metal’ in simple A-B comparisons.

You have to live with it. You need to STOP listening to the equipment, and just immerse yourself in the music. LISTEN to the music. And just immerse yourself in it.

The TT2 is just ‘crude’ and uncouth without the HMS. Once you use HMS, there’s no going back. But it takes some time to appreciate its nuances.

I agree with your final sentence except where you say that it takes time to appreciate.

To me the Mscaler improvement was and still is particularly on the rare occasions whenever my Mscaler decides to start up in bypass mode, instantly obvious with well recorded acoustic music.

And if you add either Stream or Storm BNC cables to the equation, I just can´t understand how one could not hear the benefit of an Mscaler with all three Chord dacs that work with the Mscaler in a transparent system.

IMO Qutest with an Mscaler is more realistic than both H2, Qutest,TT2 and even Dave on their own.
I think it boils down to the need to listen to acoustic music to really appreciate the improvement it makes.
All instruments I can think of simply sound more real and less digital to me with the Mscaler over Qutest on its own. To me its not really about more detail as such,but how instruments sound.

I can hear its benefits even with old analogue recordings from the late 50s tranferred to cd. And well recorded modern cds can sometimes sound as hi res, all else being equal.

But having said this,I have to admit again that, AC/DC sounded like crap both with and without mscaler to me.

Regarding John´s Mscaler dilemma, did he not just recently say he had had a pianist friend over, a friend who could easily spot the Mscaler blindfolded in his system?
And via both his speakers?
Provided nothing is seriously wrong with his ML speakers I doubt I would hear much of a difference between my own Sequel II and his SL model except perhaps at the crossover point,which if I remember correctly, sits a bit higher 300HZ? on his speakers than on mine, where the one and only crossover point is around 250 HZ.
Not an ideal crossover point for baryton and bass voice and sometimes cello basses,but still VERY transparent from there and ALL the way up as far as I can hear.
I checked both "in and out", at 14khz a few weeks ago via headphones and Hugo I, via the YT test "How old are your ears". on my iMac.
The highest tone I could reliably hear was 14khz.

Cheers CC

 

[JohnA1]

Once you use HMS, there’s no going back. But it takes some time to appreciate its nuances.

I am leaning towards the 'some time' theory.
Have eliminated all else now..

 

[JohnA1]

Regarding John´s Mscaler dilemma, did he not just recently say he had had a pianist friend over, a friend who could easily spot the Mscaler blindfolded in his system?
And via both his speakers?

Yep - but his ears are trained through mixing music for years and whatnot

The highest tone I could reliably hear was 14khz.

Same here, wouldn't bet I can hear much over 14-15K
So what, it's a loss of half an octave out of 10?

 

[new2mus]

I am leaning towards the 'some time' theory.
Have eliminated all else now..

For me, the best way I can explain it (at least for initial notice) is that it may be more about subtraction than addition.

When I first got it, I didn't think I noticed anything and never compared. I figured it may be a burn in or other issue. Forgot about it. One day, about 3 mos. later, I noticed that my music just didn't sound the same and after a few songs it just didn't seem right (less holographic, less "natural," etc.). When I went to check, I realized accidentally turned off its upscaling (while cleaning) and it was acting just as a pass through. Allowing it to upscale again and that "rightness" was back. Maybe, it's my imagination but I now notice when it isn't being used.

YMMV. We are all different in the way we hear, what we perceive, and what gear we use. I hope you have your aha moment.

 

[griff500]

To me the Mscaler improvement was and still is particularly on the rare occasions whenever my Mscaler decides to start up in bypass mode, instantly obvious with well recorded acoustic music.

Now you mention it, I did have everything unplugged recently, plugged it in and played some music and it sounded a bit off. Not something I could put my finger on but the system wasn't sounding as good as I expected. I checked and the M-Scaler was bypassed.

I think my ears had become accustomed to the DAVE sound, as I had exactly the same feeling with the TT2 and M-Scaler this time that I had when I first got it - I thought I could detect improvements in certain parts of the sound but it wasn't until I had settled into the sound that I felt it was quite noticeable when bypassing. Stopping and starting again with the TT2 freshly set up again I struggled to differentiate as easily as I had done when I had been listening for some weeks. Exactly the same happened with the DAVE (I had posted on here that I wasn't sure that the DAVE was improved as much as the TT2 was) and today it was mixed up again with trying the TT2 in my system and John's system and then back to the DAVE.

John did say that while the M-Scaler was away allegedly being checked he did feel that he missed it.

Having said that, I think John might fancy getting a DAVE now.

 

[JohnA1]

John did say that while the M-Scaler was away allegedly being checked he did feel that he missed it.

Yes, funny huh

Having said that, I think John might fancy getting a DAVE now.

the Dave made an immediate change to the TT2, scaled or not
Not good for the credit card..

 

[Christer]

Yep - but his ears are trained through mixing music for years and whatnot


Same here, wouldn't bet I can hear much over 14-15K
So what, it's a loss of half an octave out of 10?

I guess I am lucky also to have direct references to how things sound live in the hall compared to both mic-feed and masterfiles with my reference tracks from classical music recording sessions.
And before Covid hit lots of live symphonic concerts every year.
The frequency loss is something we all have to accept with age.
But I am happy that my ears at least seem quite a bit younger than my actual age would indicate judging by the YT test.

PS. I hope your MLs will spring to life again with new panels.

Imho one has to pay a LOT more money for that kind of transparency with other types of speakers.
The only real rivals to electrostats would imho, be some very expensive planar,ribbon and AMT speakers.

I know Dave is most probably about as good as digital currently gets with an mscaler added.
My personal very subjective Dave estimate, is about 10-15% better than what I have now.

But Qutest /Mscaler will be good enough for me until I find a Dave at a price I am willing to pay for it.
Cheers CC

 

[JohnA1]

PS. I hope your MLs will spring to life again with new panels.

Imho one has to pay a LOT more money for that kind of transparency with other types of speakers.

When I first listened to them 20-odd years ago I was shocked at how transparent they were.

Got my pair a few years later, not new - they were still magnificent once they were amplified and placed correctly.
Quite fussy they are.

with the new panels they should be better than when I first got them. Had covers made in the meantime, they will stay fresh forever now ha ha..

My personal very subjective Dave estimate, is about 10-15% better than what I have now.

Dave better by 15% compared to QuTest and MScaler combo?
Maybe, it was a clear improvement when I heard the Dave earlier today.

But Qutest /Mscaler will be good enough for me until I find a Dave at a price I am willing to pay for it.
Cheers CC

Ah, that is another story.
Dave is a bit long in the tooth by current HiFi standards and any replacement will affect its value immediately.
Chord wouldn't mention anything obviously until the very last moment. It may not be DAVE2, could be a DaveDX combo who knows..

 

[Reactcore]

I thought i just shared.. found another nice recording that shows Hms magic:
Check out Ry Cooder's 1986 RB album Crossroads OST

 

[Rob Watts]

exactly, something objective for a change.
waveforms superimposed on each other perhaps.
I am now left questioning my hearing/sanity, or the placebo extent on other people.

Objectivity is absolutely essential; whenever we hear a change in sound quality (assuming that the listening test is correctly done and the results consistent and accurately characterised) then there must be a science based reason for the change - and this reason must be able to explain the subjective results too. The problem is that extremely small errors are very audible - recently I was testing the sample rate converter for the ADC project. This started off very simply with fractional Lagrange interpolators; a process of designing, simulating the code, then running listening tests. The first attempt had worst case aliasing at -200 dB - but you could easily hear the effect of turning the interpolator off (then getting -160 dB aliasing). Then I kept on improving the order of the interpolator and the accuracy of the time interval, and listening to the results. Over several months, I got better and better performance - eventually hitting below -350 dB (it was at -310dB or so aliasing at this point). Frankly I started to question my own sanity at this point, as these numbers are ridiculously low. So I did a blind listening test with my son and asked him to characterise the sound - listen to this and listen to that - and he said that that one had better clarity and focus than the other, and he could easily hear the difference. His assessment agreed perfectly with mine.

The problem with this is that if you were to overlay waveforms that have -310 dB aliasing against -350 dB it would be impossible to see the difference - but the amazing thing is that we can actually perceive these very, very small differences.

One thing I can't put my finger on is when I have the MScaler engaged, it almost sounds like the music has slowed down and relaxed a bit. Even my own music, I wonder if the tempo is different from what I recorded. It's just one of those things I can't measure, but I do feel it. I'm willing to accept that it's placebo, but I have more faith in Rob and his WTA doing it's magic than my brain playing tricks on me.

I tried the M scaler on a non-audiophile and they came back with exactly the same comment - the tempo was slower.

I had assessed it as better instrument separation and focus and less instrument domination effect (your attention is drawn to the loudest instrument). When this affect happens, with the loudest dominating, it changes your perception of tempo - things sound artificially faster. In short, the music sounds mechanical or jerky and lacks natural flow without the M scaler. So it's definitely not placebo - tempo for sure is not changing in an absolute sense, but your perception of tempo is changing.