[hypnos1]

Now then, having initially thought it not worth the effort or time to reply to the lone voice amidst a congregation of x100s re. m-scaler's "lean and bright" character(??!!), I just thought I'd not disappoint his prediction of the comments to follow lol ....(a "seemingly unbiased, level headed piece of commentary" had me especially in - hopefully intentional! - uncontrollable fits! .

At first I could have sworn he was talking about some rather nasty cheap (and some not so cheap!) and cheerful examples I've had the misfortune to encounter in years of analysing dozens of different tubes' performances. But all I can say is that in all of that (exhausting, head pounding) time, I have never come across a single tube - or multiple combination thereof, that can cover such a wide frequency range from the highest registers to the lowest, and everything inbetween, as expertly as my TT2/HMS setup (including Meze Empyreans)...and more so with the m-scaler in tow in fact. And so that unfortunate experience with Abyss headphones would certainly indicate a possible (very) bad case of poor system synergy...it does happen of course, even at the highest level. Either that, or - for the controversial post in question mostly - let's be charitable and remind ourselves that there is an unfortunate minority of folks who are particularly sensitive to extremes of the frequency range - high and/or low end, and for whom choosing the right audio equipment is very much a shot in the dark alas .

Just my own thoughts on the matter, of course!...

 

[iamoneagain]

Just wondering what kind of improvement does using the optical bnc devices bring? Saw in Watt’s up postings talk about battery power would actually eliminate the need for any changes to the bcn connector. Then there’s also the expensive Wave cable the Rob Watt’s even uses at home.

But before spending money on any of this, not really sure how it improves the sound. Seems like spending $100 on battery supply would be the cheapest way but then void warranty.

 

[Mediahound]

Just wondering what kind of improvement does using the optical bnc devices bring? Saw in Watt’s up postings talk about battery power would actually eliminate the need for any changes to the bcn connector. Then there’s also the expensive Wave cable the Rob Watt’s even uses at home.

But before spending money on any of this, not really sure how it improves the sound. Seems like spending $100 on battery supply would be the cheapest way but then void warranty.

I suspect it's sorta like you can pick one of the above to improve things but adding more than one will do nothing more, and could even hurt the sound.

 

[iamoneagain]

I suspect it's sorta like you can pick one of the above to improve things but adding more than one will do nothing more, and could even hurt the sound.

Sure but what sound problem is it solving? There’s talk of RFI elimination but how can I tell if that’s effecting the sound?

 

[Mediahound]

Sure but what sound problem is it solving? There’s talk of RFI elimination but how can I tell if that’s effecting the sound?

Apparently, if you implement one of the above, and the sound gets a bit darker, that's how you can tell it's working.

 

[edwardsean]

Sure but what sound problem is it solving? There’s talk of RFI elimination but how can I tell if that’s effecting the sound?

RFI/EMI is noise. Noise is the plague of the audiophile world. It is what every hifi maker is fighting in design, and what every hifi consumer is fighting with better power cables, USB interfaces, NAA, etc. The Wave BNC cables and the optical "gap" solutions are all attempts at reducing noise. Noise affects the sound directly and also by its effects on the digital processing cycles (aka jitter).

By "noise," we don't mean audible hiss. There is always a level of parasitic noise that corrupts the pure signal which isn't as obvious. How do I know if it affects the sound then?

It's not as easy to detect as bass/treble response, soundstage imaging, or dynamics. You have to learn to listen for it because you're not trying to pick out the sound but how its being compromised. Why in the world would I want to learn to listen for something I don't want? If I'm not hearing it, then good right?

It's like there's, I don't know, a layer of dust on your TV screen. You didn't put it there. You can't see it. You can see the brightness, contrast, color, and resolution, and they're fine. However, when you take a microfiber cloth and wipe away the dust you go, "Oh, wait...."

You're listening for the way the sound is dull, grainy, glare-y, digital-ey, etc. The more resolving your system the more you can pick it out and the more it's worth rooting out. You may not hear it at fist but you can feel its fatigue. Then you analyze what exactly is fatiguing so you can fix it. It's not always noise, of course, but a system is always improved by dealing with noise.

 

[Triode User]

RFI/EMI is noise. Noise is the plague of the audiophile world. It is what every hifi maker is fighting in design, and what every hifi consumer is fighting with better power cables, USB interfaces, NAA, etc. The Wave BNC cables and the optical "gap" solutions are all attempts at reducing noise. Noise affects the sound directly and also by its effects on the digital processing cycles (aka jitter).

By "noise," we don't mean audible hiss. There is always a level of parasitic noise that corrupts the pure signal which isn't as obvious. How do I know if it affects the sound then?

It's not as easy to detect as bass/treble response, soundstage imaging, or dynamics. You have to learn to listen for it because you're not trying to pick out the sound but how its being compromised. Why in the world would I want to learn to listen for something I don't want? If I'm not hearing it, then good right?

It's like there's, I don't know, a layer of dust on your TV screen. You didn't put it there. You can't see it. You can see the brightness, contrast, color, and resolution, and they're fine. However, when you take a microfiber cloth and wipe away the dust you go, "Oh, wait...."

You're listening for the way the sound is dull, grainy, glare-y, digital-ey, etc. The more resolving your system the more you can pick it out and the more it's worth rooting out. You may not hear it at fist but you can feel its fatigue. Then you analyze what exactly is fatiguing so you can fix it. It's not always noise, of course, but a system is always improved by dealing with noise.

Much of that is about right.

And it applies to all manufacturers. I was listening to a dac this week that might have been made by Royal Military Engineers (geddit) and that exhibited these sorts of symptoms - intermodulation distortion harshness. A better power supply went a long way towards solving the issue (despite the manufacturer protesting that power supplies make no difference to his dac).

 

[iamoneagain]

RFI/EMI is noise. Noise is the plague of the audiophile world. It is what every hifi maker is fighting in design, and what every hifi consumer is fighting with better power cables, USB interfaces, NAA, etc. The Wave BNC cables and the optical "gap" solutions are all attempts at reducing noise. Noise affects the sound directly and also by its effects on the digital processing cycles (aka jitter).

By "noise," we don't mean audible hiss. There is always a level of parasitic noise that corrupts the pure signal which isn't as obvious. How do I know if it affects the sound then?

It's not as easy to detect as bass/treble response, soundstage imaging, or dynamics. You have to learn to listen for it because you're not trying to pick out the sound but how its being compromised. Why in the world would I want to learn to listen for something I don't want? If I'm not hearing it, then good right?

It's like there's, I don't know, a layer of dust on your TV screen. You didn't put it there. You can't see it. You can see the brightness, contrast, color, and resolution, and they're fine. However, when you take a microfiber cloth and wipe away the dust you go, "Oh, wait...."

You're listening for the way the sound is dull, grainy, glare-y, digital-ey, etc. The more resolving your system the more you can pick it out and the more it's worth rooting out. You may not hear it at fist but you can feel its fatigue. Then you analyze what exactly is fatiguing so you can fix it. It's not always noise, of course, but a system is always improved by dealing with noise.

This almost sounds like some of the same things that the mscaler was supposed to fix in the first place. No fatigue, remove digital glare, grain and so forth. I’m not doubting what you’re saying is true.

For now, I don’t hear any problems with any of this but I don’t really know how it sounds without RFI. I thought my Focal Utopia’s sounded amazing with stock cable but low and behold I added the Danacable and the sound noticeably increased where I thought there was nothing left to improve on. So not doubting there can be additional improvements. The questions is whether I want to spend any more money to find out.

 

[edwardsean]

This almost sounds like some of the same things that the mscaler was supposed to fix in the first place. No fatigue, remove digital glare, grain and so forth. I’m no doubting what you’re saying is true.

For now, I don’t hear any problems with any of this but I don’t really know how it sounds without RFI. I thought my Focal Utopia’s sounded amazing with stock cable but low and behold I added the Danacable and the sound noticeably increased where I thought there was nothing left to improve on. So not doubting there can be additional improvements. The questions is whether I want to spend any more money to find out.

There is some overlap as to the sonic effects of Mscaler and strategies to deal with noise. However, these contain two very distinct approaches and goals. It gets pretty complex, made even more complex by the fact that Mscaler also reduces noise by adding galvanic isolation to the BNC connection.

Simply put, Mscaler is both upsampling and upscaling. Upsampling will affect the noise problem in the digital realm, but the brilliance is in the upscaling. This part is not trying to remove noise but reconstitute the original waveform and add back the missing portions. It will surely reduce digital fatigue via a more natural waveform, but unfortunately, this won't solve the issues of a noisy system.

I'm sure you've found out by now the challenge of a good signal chain is that it's a chain. Every link matters from power to transducer. Mscaler on its own will surely sound better and less fatiguing, no question. It's always a matter of how far can you be bothered to take it. Mscaler won't fix your noisy power mains, and as Triode User mentioned, this often affects sound even against the manufacturer's expectation.

 

[iamoneagain]

There is some overlap as to the sonic effects of Mscaler and strategies to deal with noise. However, these contain two very distinct approaches and goals. It gets pretty complex, made even more complex by the fact that Mscaler also reduces noise by adding galvanic isolation to the BNC connection.

Simply put, Mscaler is both upsampling and upscaling. Upsampling will affect the noise problem in the digital realm, but the brilliance is in the upscaling. This part is not trying to remove noise but reconstitute the original waveform and add back the missing portions. It will surely reduce digital fatigue via a more natural waveform, but unfortunately, this won't solve the issues of a noisy system.

I'm sure you've found out by now the challenge of a good signal chain is that it's a chain. Every link matters from power to transducer. Mscaler on its own will surely sound better and less fatiguing, no question. It's always a matter of how far can you be bothered to take it. Mscaler won't fix your noisy power mains, and as Triode User mentioned, this often affects sound even against the manufacturer's expectation.

I do know feeding the mscaler an optical signal seems to improve things. I’ve also noticed an improvement separating roon core from the output. So I know just adding the mscaler is not an end all solution. And I’m sure adding a Wave bnc would further improve things but I was just having trouble understanding what the actual improvement would sound like. Sounds kind of like you have to hear it to know it.

With headphone cable, I can point out extension of highs, more soundstage, sweeter mids, that sort of thing.

This is why I almost pulled the trigger on battery power since fairly cheap and would allow me to get an idea of what’s changing. Wave cable seems like a more permanent solution since don’t have ever mess with it once installed. Not sure I like the optical box idea since adding more components and additional power supplies, but that’s just me.

 

[Triode User]

I do know feeding the mscaler an optical signal seems to improve things. I’ve also noticed an improvement separating roon core from the output. So I know just adding the mscaler is not an end all solution. And I’m sure adding a Wave bnc would further improve things but I was just having trouble understanding what the actual improvement would sound like. Sounds kind of like you have to hear it to know it.

With headphone cable, I can point out extension of highs, more soundstage, sweeter mids, that sort of thing.

This is why I almost pulled the trigger on battery power since fairly cheap and would allow me to get an idea of what’s changing. Wave cable seems like a more permanent solution since don’t have ever mess with it once installed. Not sure I like the optical box idea since adding more components and additional power supplies, but that’s just me.

I personally am not into using batteries in a home system but if you might have a use for the battery afterwards elsewhere then trying one to understand the sound improvement is a really good idea. Then you will hear and know what we talk about when we say that the sound is softer yet has more real detail, also more bass and more bass detail, etc etc.

 

[edwardsean]

I personally am not into using batteries in a home system but if you might have a use for the battery afterwards elsewhere then trying one to understand the sound improvement is a really good idea. Then you will hear and know what we talk about when we say that the sound is softer yet has more real detail, also more bass and more bass detail, etc etc.

I'm not crazy about battery for home solutions either. It can be effective, but it gets so cluttered.

That element of "softness" is interesting. You may associate softness in the sound as the result of smeared transients and unfocused imaging. So if you reduce noise and you get "softness" it can sound less exciting and engaging at first. I know this sounds sketchy but you have to let your brain reorient. There is a difference between a signal that is exciting because it's so true to source, and a signal that is being artificially excited by noise.

Going back to the video analogy, you can turn up the sharpness and etch the outlines on your picture. This will look more vivid. It's not the same as removing noise from the image and revealing the natural definition of the rendering. Over time I think most people will find the latter more engaging.

 

[HumanMedia]

RFI/EMI is noise. Noise is the plague of the audiophile world. It is what every hifi maker is fighting in design, and what every hifi consumer is fighting with better power cables, USB interfaces, NAA, etc. The Wave BNC cables and the optical "gap" solutions are all attempts at reducing noise. Noise affects the sound directly and also by its effects on the digital processing cycles (aka jitter).

i posted the following in the Qutest discussion last month, reposting here.
—————
Ya know every time I see reference to 2.5ghz noise being impactful to ones DAC, I immediately think of 2.5ghz wifi which operates at that frequency. Could the rising awareness of RFI issues be directly proportional to the skyrocketing prevalence and strength of home wifi?

Are we unwittingly creating a major audio problem for ourselves with 2.5ghz noise, which Rob says is pernicious and hard to eradicate, by using more and more wifi and bigger and more powerful wifi routers? Im starting to think YES absolutely. And if anything in or near your audio system uses wifi then the strength of the RFI it creates will be exponentially higher the closer it is to the receiving component or the router itself....

And cable shielding which is connected at each end, to provide a 0v reference (ie signal ground), will not help at, in fact quite the opposite as it will act as an antenna to bring in that 2.5ghz noise right were it is very damaging - signal ground.
—-————

I was made aware of the effects of RFI on audio systems 15 years or so ago, well before I heard or knew of Chord anything. End users, not just engineers were trying all sorts of RFI mitigation back then with positive results for their audio systems, reducing harsh treble. And all of this without an MScaler in sight or in existence. Now the increased use of computers, switching power supplies, wifi, light dimmers, mobile phones etc (all sources of rfi) in and around our audio systems is an order of magnitude worse.

And yes I have noticed a harshness in the lower treble in the stock Chord DACs and MScaler (amd Marantz and NAD and a slew of equipment I have heard in HiFi showrooms) and it is certain types of music which bring it into awareness. For me if there is anything in the high hat range it seems more forced and harsh with RFI issues. Orchestral is less affected as the musical energy is more equal acrosss the entire frequency range and brass centric Jazz as well as these do not have high hats high in the mix. But when there is music where the high hat and snare are prominent that’s when it is noticeable. So I can understand the comment about different types of music.

Anyway, IMO this isn’t just a Chord issue it’s everywhere. However the more delicate a sound that is created the more noticeable ithe effects of RFI is. Plus we are unwittingly adding fuel to the fire with more computer based components, more cheap switching power supplies and more wifi.

 

[Progisus]

And the mscaler creates a lot of rfi itself. If your dac is close by you are doomed. Always add a couple grand to your mscaler budget for rfi mitigation.

 

[N Quarter]

After reading all this I think I will play some records on my RP10, no RFI in sight.