Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread

[miketlse]

why these DX outputs are not used in DAVE or scaler

This post from 2016 mentions that the DX data will include the volume information for the digital amps.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-12596501

However in the recent interview video, John Franks is clearly not a fan of digital amps, so they may be a low priority for the future Chord product ranges.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

My experience is different.
I found the USB on both M Scaler and DAVE is inferior to the SPDIF inputs, both optical and BNC.
I do use the USB from the streamer to the GAIA DDC which does an excellent job providing a clean SPDIF output to the M Scaler.
The difference is significant enough for me to pay for additional boxes and cables.

Again it will depend on implementation USB is not inferior but it needs to be implemented with a noise minimisation objective. It is true that there are lots of poor USB audio implementations but that does not make USB inferior.

Of course having a 5v line as part of the USB typology makes good implementation harder but done well USB can be exceptional.

Digital is all about minimising noise getting into the DAC and noise can occur on Ethernet and Bitstream links.

 

[Beyond The Blackwall]

Try an Audioquest Coffee USB...

Also Network Acoustics Muon2 USB

The S/PDIF module for my computer cost around $20, both of those cables are very expensive. I doubt a better USB cable will result in better sound than the opitcal connection I am using now. Appreciate the feedback.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

The S/PDIF module for my computer cost around $20, both of those cables are very expensive. I doubt a better USB cable will result in better sound than the opitcal connection I am using now. Appreciate the feedback.

Yes and the USB port on your computer will not have been implemented for audio and could be very noisy.

I feel that the RFI impacts on digital cables (Ethernet & Bitstream) have been significantly underestimated and this view perpetuated by the bits are bits camp. In my experience digital cables and quiet network switch with quiet PSU used just before a dedicated audio streamer makes a meaningful difference.

RFI carried alongside the digital signal is the absolute nemesis of digital audio.

Of course the cost of the cable has to be proportionate to the rest of the set up but I increasingly view network switch and digital cables as key components.

Key your eye out for reviews of Reiki Audio JundoStream (Ethernet cable) it is extraordinary transformational.

 

[Reactcore]

I did my testings too with different players and many USB to Spdif coax and toslink DDC's.

I believe theres nothing wrong with USB as a format but aside possible noise that can creep over copper connections, theres also the, for the WTA algorytm very important, issue of data integrity. Few investigated this. We assume that we're pushing bit perfect data into the Scaler or DAC but i have my doubts about many sources conversions.

Although Rob surely holds on to the Amanero USB chip implementation being bitperfect, i do believe the FPGA side of this chip is correct, but i think the USB side of the Amanero and specially the player's software driver for it is deviating from bitperfect data throughput.

After many tests and assuring myself the player program is not altering any part of the music file with DSP and digital volume attenuation i found clear differences in sound clarity between DDC's, Chord's Amanero chip (read DDC) included.

USB input on Mscaler or DAC was not the clearest sounding of my comparison, so were other brand DDC's. They had a slight veil or muddyness over the sound. Like the WTA gives out the wrong accumulated data. And i know a bunch of people that sold their scalers for it.

Only a few DDC's gave breathing air in the sound like a curtain is removed between me and the music, most DDC's happened to use Xmos USB-toslink chips. But only the Xmos DDC's using a Xmos generic software driver sounded right.

I tried the Topping D10 with Xmos as DDC which only acceps the Topping made driver but also this sounded muddy compared.

Offcourse the differences were mostly heard with the better music files. With poorly digital (re)mastered music it was not noticable as the transient information of those records is already wasted.

Another curious thing i noticed is that on my ipad connected to Chord's Amanero USB fixates the volume at assuming max, while with the Xmos and some others it seem to push volume information. On those i can manually set the volume to 100% so no altering of the data. Setting the volume anything but 100% gave the same veil as the Chord USB and the 'muddy' DDC's with fixed volume.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

I did my testings too with different players and many USB to Spdif coax and toslink DDC's.

I believe theres nothing wrong with USB as a format but aside possible noise that can creep over copper connections, theres also the, for the WTA algorytm very important, issue of data integrity. Few investigated this. We assume that we're pushing bit perfect data into the Scaler or DAC but i have my doubts about many sources conversions.

Although Rob surely holds on to the Amanero USB chip implementation being bitperfect, i do believe the FPGA side of this chip is correct, but i think the USB side of the Amanero and specially the player's software driver for it is deviating from bitperfect data throughput.

After many tests and assuring myself the player program is not altering any part of the music file with DSP and digital volume attenuation i found clear differences in sound clarity between DDC's, Chord's Amanero chip (read DDC) included.

USB input on Mscaler or DAC was not the clearest sounding of my comparison, so were other brand DDC's. They had a slight veil or muddyness over the sound. Like the WTA gives out the wrong accumulated data. And i know a bunch of people that sold their scalers for it.

Only a few DDC's gave breathing air in the sound like a curtain is removed between me and the music, most DDC's happened to use Xmos USB-toslink chips. But only the Xmos DDC's using a Xmos generic software driver sounded right.

I tried the Topping D10 with Xmos as DDC which only acceps the Topping made driver but also this sounded muddy compared.

Offcourse the differences were mostly heard with the better music files. With poorly digital (re)mastered music it was not noticable as the transient information of those records is already wasted.

Another curious thing i noticed is that on my ipad connected to Chord's Amanero USB fixates the volume at assuming max, while with the Xmos and some others it seem to push volume information. On those i can manually set the volume to 100% so no altering of the data. Setting the volume anything but 100% gave the same veil as the Chord USB and the 'muddy' DDC's with fixed volume.

I think you have to look to eradicate RFI along the entire digital chain up to the DAC.

In my case working backwards from the TT2 I use:

Wave Storm Ref dual BNC between TT2 & M Scaler

Sean Jacobs Capbox between M Scaler and supplied SMPS plugged into a different main ring to the TT2 with Chord Co Power Aray on TT2 and another on the rest of the rig

Network Acoustics Muon2 USB between M Scaler and Innous Pulsar which uses the Phoenix Lite USB reclocker

Reiki Audio JundoStream Ethernet between Pulsar and Reiki Audio SuperSwitch using iFi Elite SMPS and Sean Jacobs Capbox

Innuos Zen III (used as bridged NAS on the rack) connected to the SuperSwitch via Melco C100 Ethernet

Second Reiki Audio SuperSwitch connected via Melco C100 to the Innuos Zen with switch using iFi Elite SMPS and Sean Jacobs Capbox

The Ethernet line from Router is a dedicated line (standard Cat 5e) into the second SuperSwitch, nothing else connects to this line.

My router is powered by an iFi Power X

Note JundoStream and C100 are only grounded at the send end.

Some will say this is over the top, others will say I should replace the two Chord and two iFi SMPS with LPS but the sound is sublime.

Everything was individually meaningful but the biggest impacts were JundoStream (extraordinary), SuperSwitch 1 and plugging the M Scaler into a different mains ring.

 

[Reactcore]

I think you have to look to eradicate RFI along the entire digital chain up to the DAC.

Yep all true.

But on my post i spoke about data integrity aside the RF aspect. To look at that too.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

When I want to play DSD and other high res over USB I use an iFi Zen Stream on Bix power battery (the one Rob uses) and the iFi Zen Stream is on Wi-Fi, no cables for Ethernet, it sounds absolutely incredible, as good as Toslink from my other Steamer and I can use High res DSD and PCM. I use a Tripp Lite Shielded Generic USB cable which has a Ferrite attached to it at the factory, it is killer. No need for a bunch of boxes on my side, and I use an iFi Elite 12V switch mode power supply on the M scaler, which if the numbers are to be believed, is as quiet as a battery. The sound is sublime.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

Yep all true.

But on my post i spoke about data integrity aside the RF aspect. To look at that too.

Sure.

The only possible concern with a bitstream digital link other than RFI noise is jitter. USB offers a big jitter advantage over SPDIF or I2S because the DAC’s own clock can be in ultimate control of the average data transfer rate. USB enables receiver and sender to be perfectly synchronised so jitter is eliminated.

The M Scaler USB input has the same advantage as it re-clocks as well.

Many very high end streamers are USB only.

While we’re at it jitter on Ethernet is simply not the same thing and can not impact sound quality because of the Ethernet delivery protocol so Ethernet optimisation is about RFI and cross-talk.

 

[Meridian7]

Sure.

The only possible concern with a bitstream digital link other than RFI noise is jitter. USB offers a big jitter advantage over SPDIF or I2S because the DAC’s own clock can be in ultimate control of the average data transfer rate. USB enables receiver and sender to be perfectly synchronised so jitter is eliminated.

The M Scaler USB input has the same advantage as it re-clocks as well.

Many very high end streamers are USB only.

While we’re at it jitter on Ethernet is simply not the same thing and can not impact sound quality because of the Ethernet delivery protocol so Ethernet optimisation is about RFI and cross-talk.

IIRC Chord dacs are jitter immune on spdif too as a brand speciality.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I really think people imagine all kinds of issues and RF nonsense, at the end of the day some really need to just sit down and enjoy the music, thinking about "issues" to solve just detracts from the enjoyment of the music.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

I really think people imagine all kinds of issues and RF nonsense, at the end of the day some really need to just sit down and enjoy the music, thinking about "issues" to solve just detracts from the enjoyment of the music.

I am thoroughly enjoying my music and even more so after mitigating RFI so I am happy with the enhancements.

Some of the impacts are meaningful and really add to the musical experience, don’t underestimate or dismiss the impacts.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I am thoroughly enjoying my music and even more so after mitigating RFI so I am happy with the enhancements.

Some of the impacts are meaningful and really add to the musical experience, don’t underestimate or dismiss the impacts.

Good for you, I'm there with my TT-2 and M scaler plus some really minor tweaks. I am referring to an incessant need some have to have "perfection" in a system. It really is a fantasy. I know some that have spent hundreds of thousands of Dollars down the rabbit hole, it's insane.

 

[Sevenoaks Audiophile]

Good for you, I'm there with my TT-2 and M scaler plus some really minor tweaks. I am referring to an incessant need some have to have "perfection" in a system. It really is a fantasy. I know some that have spent hundreds of thousands of Dollars down the rabbit hole, it's insane.

Yes I agree, I had to stop myself it becomes an obsession.

The fact remains that the TT2 and M Scaler out of the box using supplied SMPS and dual BNC together sound superb using any of the M Scalers inputs.

I have probably spent the same amount again as the combined cost of TT2 & M Scaler on RFI mitigation, although I got some exceptional deals and it would have been significantly more at list prices. If I include the cost of the Pulsar and Zen III then the amount spent on RFI enhancements represent circa 40% of the cost of my 4 digital components.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Yes I agree, I had to stop myself it becomes an obsession.

The fact remains that the TT2 and M Scaler out of the box using supplied SMPS and dual BNC together sound superb using any of the M Scalers inputs.

I have probably spent the same amount again as the combined cost of TT2 & M Scaler on RFI mitigation, although I got some exceptional deals and it would have been significantly more at list prices. If I include the cost of the Pulsar and Zen III then the amount spent on RFI enhancements represent circa 40% of the cost of my 4 digital components.

It's a very expensive hobby for sure, I know some that spent the price tags of TT-2 and M scaler just on cables, it's crazy.