[jlbrach]

That's not what he was referring to at all. Apparently he thinks the voltage out of the M Scaler is not compatible with this Topping DAC and therefore 'illegal'. The reality is the M Scaler is not really made for the Topping DAC he keeps insisting on testing things with. Further, he did test with a Hugo 2 and didn't measure or encounter any issue when using the Chord DAC.

He keeps using the Topping DAC in many of his reviews, and finding various issues with products used in conjunction with that DAC.

Who's the ignorant one now?

if you are testing an m scaler with a topping DAC...you deserve all sorts of ridicule...

 

[jlbrach]

This may be of interest to you……Stereophile has this in their A rated components…..Topping PRE90:

“But with its extraordinarily low levels of noise and distortion and very high channel separation, he concluded "the fact that that performance can be in such a small chassis and for such a low price suggests that Topping has some serious audio engineering talent in-house." (Vol.45 No.2 WWW)

Obviously, Stereophile doesn’t think they’re skimping on something.

I get stereophile, their ratings reflect price...topping is certainly a fine product for its price

 

[GuiltyRocker]

basically this site says my ford has 4 wheels and gets me to the same place as your expensive mercedes sports car thus it is as good and the mercedes is a waste of money...basically the site seems to exist to assert that all high end audio is a fraud and all you need spend is a couple of hundred dollars...I get why people read it it makes them feel better

I couldn't have put it better, that's exactly what it is. Back when I couldn't afford high end audio I never disparaged expensive equipment and speakers, instead I strived to get to own those products in the future and I have.

 

[BassicScience]

I couldn't have put it better, that's exactly what it is. Back when I couldn't afford high end audio I never disparaged expensive equipment and speakers, instead I strived to get to own those products in the future and I have.

Dude, you're welcome to buy and enjoy whatever gear you like, but asserting that people disparage gear simply because they can't afford it is inane. The MScaler was sent to ASR by a rather wealthy individual because (in his words) he was wondering if it was actually making any difference in his system, and he wanted Amir to lab test it. ASR did not actively go out and procure an MScaler because they had some agenda to "disparage" it. Just because YOU either don't understand or don't care about objective measurements doesn't mean they don't have value to some audiophiles. Many people who've been in this hobby for decades understand that even highly trained ears can be unreliable for any number of reasons, and measurements can be a useful "sanity check" in many cases. Again, just because you may not find any value in them doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

 

[Mediahound]

Dude, you're welcome to buy and enjoy whatever gear you like, but asserting that people disparage gear simply because they can't afford it is inane. The MScaler was sent to ASR by a rather wealthy individual because (in his words) he was wondering if it was actually making any difference in his system, and he wanted Amir to lab test it. ASR did not actively go out and procure an MScaler because they had some agenda to "disparage" it. Just because YOU either don't understand or don't care about objective measurements doesn't mean they don't have value to some audiophiles. Many people who've been in this hobby for decades understand that even highly trained ears can be unreliable for any number of reasons, and measurements can be a useful "sanity check" in many cases. Again, just because you may not find any value in them doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

The problem is he didn't measure the right thing(s), nor measure correctly. He just measured a 1kHz test tone through it which does not even measure transients, the very thing the M Scaler improves. You can talk the value of measurements all day long, but there we have someone actually measuring incorrectly and making/publishing false claims based on errored methodology. (Not even mentioning he used the Topping DAC and with the M Scaler not at it's full potential 16x mode with a Chord DAC).

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Dude, you're welcome to buy and enjoy whatever gear you like, but asserting that people disparage gear simply because they can't afford it is inane. The MScaler was sent to ASR by a rather wealthy individual because (in his words) he was wondering if it was actually making any difference in his system, and he wanted Amir to lab test it. ASR did not actively go out and procure an MScaler because they had some agenda to "disparage" it. Just because YOU either don't understand or don't care about objective measurements doesn't mean they don't have value to some audiophiles. Many people who've been in this hobby for decades understand that even highly trained ears can be unreliable for any number of reasons, and measurements can be a useful "sanity check" in many cases. Again, just because you may not find any value in them doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

Measurements are important, I'm not disagreeing with that, you can spot deep issues in products with measurements. But, the opposite is also bad, in an extreme focusing on just measurements is also not good. In my experience I have met a great deal of people that disparage products because they can't afford them, in ASR you have both kinds, some that are curious about the measurements, but also listen, and those that are cult-like and refuse to understand that higher end and more expensive products also have a place. If you read through the comments it's easy to spot the ones I'm talking about.

 

[Sampajanna]

Go to mid-thread a

Dude, you're welcome to buy and enjoy whatever gear you like, but asserting that people disparage gear simply because they can't afford it is inane. The MScaler was sent to ASR by a rather wealthy individual because (in his words) he was wondering if it was actually making any difference in his system, and he wanted Amir to lab test it. ASR did not actively go out and procure an MScaler because they had some agenda to "disparage" it. Just because YOU either don't understand or don't care about objective measurements doesn't mean they don't have value to some audiophiles. Many people who've been in this hobby for decades understand that even highly trained ears can be unreliable for any number of reasons, and measurements can be a useful "sanity check" in many cases. Again, just because you may not find any value in them doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

Go to mid-thread and read how this same kind fellow who spent his money to send it is fed up with all the negativity and “only idiots buy such things.” ASR is a vat of green sludge….

 

[chesebert]

basically this site says my ford has 4 wheels and gets me to the same place as your expensive mercedes sports car thus it is as good and the mercedes is a waste of money...basically the site seems to exist to assert that all high end audio is a fraud and all you need spend is a couple of hundred dollars...I get why people read it it makes them feel better

I look at things a bit differently. I would compare two cars (say Ford and Mercedes sports cars) that have the same 0-60, same breaking distance, same 1/4 mile, same nuremberg completion time, same turn radius, same drag coefficient and the same reliability, but one costs $10k and the other costs $100k. The $100k car looks nicer and is built with better materials and comes from a better brand, which car would you buy?

 

[BassicScience]

The problem is he didn't measure the right thing(s), nor measure correctly. He just measured a 1kHz test tone through it which does not even measure transients, the very thing the M Scaler improves. You can talk the value of measurements all day long, but there we have someone actually measuring incorrectly and making/publishing false claims based errored methodology. (Not even mentioning he used the Topping DAC and with the M Scaler not at it's full potential 16x mode with a Chord DAC).

Then kindly refer me to the "correct" published measurements that demonstrate the M Scaler's performance improvement with transients. It seems like Chord would have already presented them as a rebuttal to the ASR review, no?

Look, I have no real dog in this fight. I don't own a Chord DAC, and have never comparatively auditioned an M Scaler. Based on following this thread for awhile (mostly for entertainment purposes), it seems that reports on the audible improvements offered by the M Scaler range from "none" to "life-changing" and everywhere in-between. Unlike many folks at ASR, I have no issue with people spending money on audio gear in any way that improves their listening experience, regardless of how the product may measure in a lab. I just get annoyed at random ad hominem attacks aimed at Amir, ASR, or objectivists in general. The specific comment that prompted my response was the lame cliche that people "disparage" M Scaler or other expensive products simply because they can't afford them. Yeah, right.

 

[Sampajanna]

Then kindly refer me to the "correct" published measurements that demonstrate the M Scaler's performance improvement with transients. It seems like Chord would have already presented them as a rebuttal to the ASR review, no?

Look, I have no real dog in this fight. I don't own a Chord DAC, and have never comparatively auditioned an M Scaler. Based on following this thread for awhile (mostly for entertainment purposes), it seems that reports on the audible improvements offered by the M Scaler range from "none" to "life-changing" and everywhere in-between. Unlike many folks at ASR, I have no issue with people spending money on audio gear in any way that improves their listening experience, regardless of how the product may measure in a lab. I just get annoyed at random ad hominem attacks aimed at Amir, ASR, or objectivists in general. The specific comment that prompted my response was the lame cliche that people "disparage" M Scaler or other expensive products simply because they can't afford them. Yeah, right.

My dislike of ASR has nothing to do with objectivism or measurements and everything to d with the high degree of negativity, uncivil discussion and trolling. It is unpleasant there. Instead of debunking, why not explore, discover, find truth? Why not hypothesize and then test your ideas and have fun doing so. Very little fun there. Everywhere ASR people go, on any forum, drama follows…. Partypoopers.

 

[BassicScience]

Go to mid-thread a

Go to mid-thread and read how this same kind fellow who spent his money to send it is fed up with all the negativity and “only idiots buy such things.” ASR is a vat of green sludge….

Nice to see that the discourse here is much more mature and positive.

You cherry-picked a single comment and rather out of context at that. The gentleman who sent the unit to ASR was quite appreciative of ASR and of the free service provided by Amir, the presence of some zealots on the site notwithstanding. In any case, I don't want to descend further into the weeds here, so I'll bow out. I said what I wanted to say. Cheers.

 

[chesebert]

I am confused - isn't FFT measuring the response of the digital circuit in response to an impulse response - i.e., transient response? I honest have no clue what "transient response" Rob was talking about in the digital domain.

I did participate in a group demo of MScaler with TT and the reaction ranged from obvious improvement, to different but meh, to no difference, to obvious degradation. In other words, just like everything in this hobby, it's YMMV.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

My dislike of ASR has nothing to do with objectivism or measurements and everything to d with the high degree of negativity, uncivil discussion and trolling. It is unpleasant there. Instead of debunking, why not explore, discover, find truth? Why not hypothesize and then test your ideas and have fun doing so. Very little fun there. Everywhere ASR people go, on any forum, drama follows…. Partypoopers.

Oh if you question the testing, or attempt to argue about the measurements you get banned. GoldenSound called out the flawed testing and was banned and plenty others. Hilarious.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I am confused - isn't FFT measuring the response of the digital circuit in response to an impulse response - i.e., transient response? I honest have no clue what "transient response" Rob was talking about in the digital domain.

I did participate in a group demo of MScaler with TT and the reaction ranged from obvious improvement, to different but meh, to no difference, to obvious degradation. In other words, just like everything in this hobby, it's YMMV.

Not at all, it's just a 1KHZ sine way and there distortion and SINAD are measured based on that 1khz sine Wave, what's funny is that plenty of products have distortion in other frequencies, he tests multitone on some products, which can then show you distortion in other frequencies, but his main test is that 1khz console, he has others like Jitter test and linearity, which can show you other issues in a product. However, the products in the site are rated best/worst based on that limited 1khz SINAD rating, which was mostly used for transistor radios, go figure LOL.

Now, music has transients, some of these transients are recovered by simple and short interpolation filters, some of these have 100 taps etc. The issue is many transients are lost and chopped off due to these filters, according to Claude Shannon to get close to perfection in reproducing an analog sinal/wave you need to use Sync Function over X to properly get the decay and ringing in each sync function impulse, to do that you need an infinite-length filter, Rob is the only designer that I know of that is trying to get close to that, this is the reason for the long digital filter, to get close to that and reconstruct the analog signal with all the transients intact, which should improve timbre, musicality, and edges of notes as well as bass, depth and other qualities.

 

[Mediahound]

I am confused - isn't FFT measuring the response of the digital circuit in response to an impulse response - i.e., transient response? I honest have no clue what "transient response" Rob was talking about in the digital domain.

I did participate in a group demo of MScaler with TT and the reaction ranged from obvious improvement, to different but meh, to no difference, to obvious degradation. In other words, just like everything in this hobby, it's YMMV.

No sine wave of any frequency contains transients.