[3X0]

Quote:

But an HD600 for $100? I'm skeptical... I'm inclined to believe that the materials alone would cost that much, if not more. I'd think $200 or so would be a reasonable price for them to make a profit.
 
But so is everyone agreeing that $200 spent on a dac/amp six years ago gets you the same audio quality as $200 spent on a current product?

The HD 580 was sold for $120 years ago before it was discontinued, and besides the grills and assembly the HD 580 and HD 600 are arguably more similar than different.
 
I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Creative E-MU 0404 USB and a ODAC/O2 stack or other newfangled offerings (I already know I can't tell the difference between the former and something like a Lavry DA11 or Benchmark DAC1).

 

[idunno]

Quote:

The HD 580 was sold for $120 years ago before it was discontinued, and besides the grills and assembly the HD 580 and HD 600 are arguably more similar than different.
 

 
$120 adjusted for roughly 20 years of inflation = $200 today.

 

[3X0]

Quote:

 
$120 adjusted for roughly 20 years of inflation = $200 today.

The HD 580 was discontinued a decade ago, not two.
 
When the HD 600 was introduced in 1998, it cost $450. I'm having difficulty locating a data point comparing the prices for the two right before the former was discontinued, though I'm pretty sure the latter was significantly more expensive.
 
Inflation-adjusted cost today would actually be close to $150, nevermind the fact that the engineering costs were more than completely recovered years ago. They'd definitely still earn profits on the HD 600 at $150, possibly even $120.

 

[wilcaz]

Quote:

I think it is more a matter of smaller market/lower quantities.  There is a lot of bling in this hobby where a lot of money is spent on the chassis and the quantities are not high enough to produce them cheaply.

This is more the case. Those saying that prices are high because of limited demand kind of have it backwards. Economics 101 actually tells us that lower demand will decrease the cost. The issue is the fixed costs on the supply side--big consumer electronics companies keep prices low because of the scale of their mass production, which decreases the marginal cost of each unit produced. 

 

[idunno]

The HD 580 was discontinued a decade ago, not two.

When the HD 600 was introduced in 1998, it cost $450. I'm having difficulty locating a data point comparing the prices for the two right before the former was discontinued, though I'm pretty sure the latter was significantly more expensive.

Inflation-adjusted cost today would actually be close to $150, nevermind the fact that the engineering costs were more than completely recovered years ago. They'd definitely still earn profits on the HD 600 at $150, possibly even $120.

I agree they're overpriced, but think saying at what price they'd "definitely" make a profit is conjecture without seeing what their actual material and labor costs are.

Also, keep in mind that sales of older designs like the HD600 provide revenue to fund R&D on new products. If they didn't overcharge for that, would there have been an HD800 at all?

 

[3X0]

Quote:

I agree they're overpriced, but think saying at what price they'd "definitely" make a profit is conjecture without seeing what their actual material and labor costs are.

If they could break a profit on the HD 580 at $120 in 2002, I'm willing to bet they could break a profit on the 600 at $150 today.
 
Sennheiser is the only company I know of off the top of my head whose headphone prices have trended upwards instead of staying the same or falling since I joined head-fi. AKG, Beyerdynamic and Audio-Technica offerings are all cheaper than they were 7 years ago.
 
Ordering replacement parts from Sennheiser directly tells a similar story about what kind of margins they're getting. A plastic headband costs $90+shipping from them. For comparison, you can purchase a pair of flagship Audio-Technica (e.g. AD2000X) drivers for shy of $50.

 

[Dubstep Girl]

Quote:

If they could break a profit on the HD 580 at $120 in 2002, I'm willing to bet they could break a profit on the 600 at $150 today.
 
Sennheiser is the only company I know of off the top of my head whose headphone prices have trended upwards instead of staying the same or falling since I joined head-fi. AKG, Beyerdynamic and Audio-Technica offerings are all cheaper than they were 7 years ago.
 
Ordering replacement parts from Sennheiser directly tells a similar story about what kind of margins they're getting. A plastic headband costs $90+shipping from them. For comparison, you can purchase a pair of flagship Audio-Technica (e.g. AD2000X) drivers for shy of $50.

 
a single HD 650 driver only costs $40
 
had to buy one a while ago.

 

[3X0]

Quote:

a single HD 650 driver only costs $40
 
had to buy one a while ago.

That's "only" $80 for a pair of a decade-old diaphragm.
 
The AD2000X's drivers are $50 for the pair and those are brand-new $650 headphones. The separate plastic assemblies are also very reasonable compared to Sennheiser pricing -- $30 for a wing assembly, for example. I believe Beyerdynamic pricing is similarly reasonable, though I'm not sure about AKG.
 
 
Sennheiser is overpriced, period. They have some opportunity to be considering their relative brand equity -- in fact the ATH-M50's popularity caused it to spike in price recently as well.

 

[idunno]

That's "only" $80 for a pair of a decade-old diaphragm.

The AD2000X's drivers are $50 for the pair and those are brand-new $650 headphones. The separate plastic assemblies are also very reasonable compared to Sennheiser pricing -- $30 for a wing assembly, for example. I believe Beyerdynamic pricing is similarly reasonable, though I'm not sure about AKG.


Sennheiser is overpriced, period. They have some opportunity to be considering their relative brand equity -- in fact the ATH-M50's popularity caused it to spike in price recently as well.

This is all very interesting, but the purpose of this thread isn't to bash Sennheiser. Let's get back on-topic? Bang for the buck now versus then, industry wide.

 

[3X0]

That's fairly intuitive.

Bang-for-buck of Sennheiser: less
Bang-for-buck of everything else: more

 

[meat01]

Bang for the buck: DIY, or Schitt, Fiio or buy used.  A used amplifier will sound as good as a new one

 

 

[joshkim12]

i think the price of the technology is going to fall soon.  with sennheiser and asus putting out amps and dacs its inevitable.  or is it. i don't know. 

 

[elwappo99]

Quote:

That's "only" $80 for a pair of a decade-old diaphragm.
 
The AD2000X's drivers are $50 for the pair and those are brand-new $650 headphones. The separate plastic assemblies are also very reasonable compared to Sennheiser pricing -- $30 for a wing assembly, for example. I believe Beyerdynamic pricing is similarly reasonable, though I'm not sure about AKG.
 
 
Sennheiser is overpriced, period. They have some opportunity to be considering their relative brand equity -- in fact the ATH-M50's popularity caused it to spike in price recently as well.

 
I completely agree with this. Headphones are not complicated, and really don't have expensive parts in them. A good portion of it all is plastic. Then? Some foam, a few pieces of metal and  drivers. Don't be fooled by the drivers. These drivers are not expensive to make after all these years, as the entire driver is made by machine. There isn't that much cost that is going into these. A few years ago sennheiser began tightening up and forcing merchants to sell the HD600 and HD650 at much higher prices than they were previously. The entire market shifted. Used HD650s would sell for $250 regularly, HD600s were down to $200. 
 
Sennheiser knows they have a good market, and they are milking it (i.e. us) for all its worth. 
 
Quote:

i think the price of the technology is going to fall soon.  with sennheiser and asus putting out amps and dacs its inevitable.  or is it. i don't know. 

 
A lot of the new releases of amplifiers and DACs are basically rehashing old technologies in a different way, with a new marketing introduction. 
 
I would be shocked if the new amplifier they release is anything but hanging onto the coattails of the brand name. It would be totally surprising if that thing holds its own at the asking price of nearly $2000. Sennheiser is aiming to get a little more cash out of their HD800, and that's the perfect way to do it. The people that will be really excited for it are people without a lot of DAC and amp experience. They'll go with it, since it's the "perfect match" for the HD800 (as sennheiser will claim). 
 
 
Do I sound like a total cynic?

 

[wilcaz]

Not just the headphones' materials to into the cost. Also have to pay engineers to develop new products, etc

 

[joshkim12]

Quote:

 
Sennheiser knows they have a good market, and they are milking it (i.e. us) for all its worth. 
 
 
A lot of the new releases of amplifiers and DACs are basically rehashing old technologies in a different way, with a new marketing introduction. 
 
I would be shocked if the new amplifier they release is anything but hanging onto the coattails of the brand name. It would be totally surprising if that thing holds its own at the asking price of nearly $2000. Sennheiser is aiming to get a little more cash out of their HD800, and that's the perfect way to do it. The people that will be really excited for it are people without a lot of DAC and amp experience. They'll go with it, since it's the "perfect match" for the HD800 (as sennheiser will claim). 
 
 
Do I sound like a total cynic?

 
 
No, you're probably right.  and is that really the asking price of their amps?
Not sure if their joining the market is a good thing or a bad thing.