[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

I think discrete op amps are a relatively new thing as commercial products. (I think)

 
Nah. The Jensen 990 dates back to the early 80's and I'm sure there were others before that.
 
Jensen stopped making the 990 some time back, but John Hardy's still producing them.
 
http://www.johnhardyco.com/990OpAmpDetails.html
 
se

 

[EraserXIV]

In the analog domain I feel that we're definitely close to a technological ceiling as far as amplifiers go. Yes there are different variations of current (and old) technology that are still to be explored, but as far as groundbreaking technological advancements, don't hold your breath.
 
The digital domain though.. that's another story.

 

[idunno]

Seems like most of you agree that there's little room for analog to improve in terms of the technology itself... but what about bang for the buck? That's the main point of this thread... in fact I think I'll rename the thread accordingly.
 
The discrete op amps for example... When the Compass came out, there was much talk about the Audio-GD OPA / HDAM, delivering performance similar to the Burson at half the cost--that it was a major improvement in the value of audio technology. Now Steve Eddy mentions the Jensen product, but I don't know how that fits into the mix... Anyway, that's just one example of a time when I've read about creative circuit design yielding similar quality at lower cost.

 

[3X0]

You just made people that responded earlier sound off-topic and pedantic.

 
I don't think most people will need to spend more than $200-300 upstream for non-electrostats. Of course transducers don't really have that sort of "good enough" range depending on what you're looking for.

 

[idunno]

You just made people that responded earlier sound off-topic and pedantic.

Haha, oops. Sorry folks.

 

[vid]

Take the Sennheiser HD 530 from the late '80s for an example. There's a guy who took his old HD 530 to the hifi shop looking to upgrade. He listened to the HD 650, then listened to his HD 530, and found the HD 650 to be at best a tiny improvement. Though he did find the HD 600 to be noticeably better than either one of the other two.
 
Still, the HD 650 sell for $300 used and the HD 530 go for about $30 used. Even if the HD 530 don't quite reach the HD 650 in technical terms, the scales of value tip in a certain direction there.
 
The other question is, if in the '80s they could (and they could) make phones that are comparable now to modern offerings, why are we still paying through the nose for this technology? Electrostats, too - a decent DIYer can make their own stats at home from very basic ingredients, and the technology has been explored by professional manufacturers for five decades, yet we still don't have a modern $100 stat nor by that extension a revolution in the quality (or value) of personal audio.

 

[EraserXIV]

Supply and demand. These are not main-stream products and as long as there are people willing to pay high prices, they will continue to keep charging them. If these products were sold at the same profit margins as larger companies like Apple and Google, I guarantee we'd be paying close to half the price.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Supply and demand. These are not main-stream products and as long as there are people willing to pay high prices, they will continue to keep charging them. If these products were sold at the same profit margins as larger companies like Apple and Google, I guarantee we'd be paying close to half the price.

This is exactly what it comes down to.  There is no reason for a DAC to cost more than a few hundred dollars, yet there are some that sell for more than $3K.  High end audio is a niche market.

 

[idunno]

Quote:

This is exactly what it comes down to.  There is no reason for a DAC to cost more than a few hundred dollars, yet there are some that sell for more than $3K.  High end audio is a niche market.

 
Agreed, the limited demand does keep prices up... but are prices inflated that much? Have to keep in mind that a smaller market/lower quantities make for higher manufacturing costs, and longer time to recover development costs.
 
Or are you saying that there isn't as much of a difference between the various devices on the market as the manufacturers would have us think?

 

[EraserXIV]

Quote:

 
Agreed, the limited demand does keep prices up... but are prices inflated that much? Have to keep in mind that a smaller market/lower quantities make for higher manufacturing costs, and longer time to recover development costs.
 
Or are you saying that there isn't as much of a difference between the various devices on the market as the manufacturers would have us think?

 
If the top of the line Macbook Pro can be sold at 20% the price of some of the gear out here, I think that kind of puts it in perspective how marked up these things are. And this is counting R&D, manpower, salaries, etc that Apple has to recoup too (just because they're a big company doesn't mean they're exempt from those costs too).
 
And when you consider the fact that a laptop is infinitely more complex than a simple amplifier layout.. you might even start getting a little sick in the stomach. But hey this is the hobby we signed up for, we knew what we were getting into (we did, right?).

 

[meat01]

Quote:

 
Agreed, the limited demand does keep prices up... but are prices inflated that much? Have to keep in mind that a smaller market/lower quantities make for higher manufacturing costs, and longer time to recover development costs.
 
Or are you saying that there isn't as much of a difference between the various devices on the market as the manufacturers would have us think?

I think it is more a matter of smaller market/lower quantities.  There is a lot of bling in this hobby where a lot of money is spent on the chassis and the quantities are not high enough to produce them cheaply.

 

[vid]

Quote:

Agreed, the limited demand does keep prices up... but are prices inflated that much? Have to keep in mind that a smaller market/lower quantities make for higher manufacturing costs, and longer time to recover development costs.

 
The Sennheiser HD 600 sells for $400 new. It's a massively popular can and its technology was introduced 20 years ago. What development costs do they still have to recover? Is there a reason the HD 600 can't be sold for $100 and still make a profit?

 

[meat01]

And why can't a headphone company that has been producing headphones for years sell an HD800 for less than $600?  There is not new technology in the drivers.  I realize that had to pay for new tooling ,molds and R&D on the newer model, but that is what they, do build headphones.  The jump in price on newer models is obscene.
 

 

[3X0]

Quote:

There is not new technology in the drivers.

There isn't? I thought the HD 800 used a heretofore unseen assembly what with the ring transducer and baffle.

 

[idunno]

Quote:

 
The Sennheiser HD 600 sells for $400 new. It's a massively popular can and its technology was introduced 20 years ago. What development costs do they still have to recover? Is there a reason the HD 600 can't be sold for $100 and still make a profit?

The HD600 is definitely an example of a company charging what it thinks it can in a limited market. Sennheiser is large enough that they're able to mass produce items, and yes their development costs are nonexistent on older products. But an HD600 for $100? I'm skeptical... I'm inclined to believe that the materials alone would cost that much, if not more. I'd think $200 or so would be a reasonable price for them to make a profit.
 
My comments about development and production costs were aimed more at the small shops making amps and dacs in comparably miniscule quanities for a very limited audience.
 
But so is everyone agreeing that $200 spent on a dac/amp six years ago gets you the same audio quality as $200 spent on a current product?