[audiofil]

I think money are better spent in proper filtering or conditioning.
I've also found that even a simple Schaffner IEC line filter (which sell for 20$) can bring more benefits than an expensive Furutech cable.

Given the wealth of choices today for both commercial and DIY affordable power conditioning devices, I think it's hard to find solid arguments in spending big bucks for mains cables.

 

[haloxt]

A parody science lab could be popular like parody news. Bill Nye the Technocrat, and his book I am Science (And So Can You!).

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law. And you have the equipment to measure what a power cord does to an audio or av chain ?? Could you pls sell me one - at rip-off pricing? There are no borders to human stupidity ...

thanks for so vivid an illustration of my point that you quoted. too late for me to change my view, though, in light of the vast array of compelling facts and evidence you have provided to substantiate your point.

Look, this is an area requiring real evidence an arguments-- my point was that there is a burden of proof on both sides, and I did reveal which side of things I supported -- nothing more, nothing less......

 

[haloxt]

Science in the year 2010 consists of picking a random hypothesis and declaring it science. How else can there be such things like Shaken Baby Syndrome. Get with the times!

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzman /img/forum/go_quote.gif my point was that there is a burden of proof on both sides

Quoting from Wikipedia: The burden of proof ...
Quote:

is often asymmetrical and typically falls more heavily on the party that makes either an ontologically positive claim, or makes a claim more "extraordinary"[4], that is farther removed from conventionally accepted facts.

Check also the chart they have further down entitled "Asymmetry in the Burden of Proof," and compare the amount of burden for the claims "Fairies exists" vs. the claim "Fairies do not exist."


There is only one positive claim being discussed here, and that is: "expensive power cords make an audible difference compared to decently built power cords, like simple hospital grade ones." That is only one claim, the asymmetry of the burden of proof here lies clearly on the side making such positive claim.

 

[haloxt]

fzman, you have exactly 4 minutes and 36 seconds to prove power cables make an audible difference or it is not true.

I feel like making my own little gif

messenger: You only argue with a hypothesis. This is inconclusive!
rsaavedra: Inconclusive? THIS IS SCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIENCE!

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif fzman, you have exactly 4 minutes and 36 seconds to prove power cables make an audible difference or it is not true.

And... time's up.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Such products are not rip-offs - they are fraud and as such people selling them should be processed by law. And you have the equipment to measure what a power cord does to an audio or av chain ?? Could you pls sell me one - at rip-off pricing? There are no borders to human stupidity ...

Just don't buy a power cable. That is all you have to do. It is OK. Especially if you do not know anything about them. Before making such remarks about fraud. Make some cables use some silver, silver plated copper, pure copper wire with some rhodium, silver, copper , brass IEC's. Have a mini meet to audition cables with others to experience different opinions and maybe learn something new? Try this before making bold statements about "fraud" and "There are no borders to human to human stupidity" toward power cables. Please do your homework first. Go to a local audio store, ask to audition cables and ask a lot of questions. You can't get all your answers behind a computer?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't get all your answers behind a computer?

Why can't you?

Unless you've got a very good audio store, asking questions there may just lead in the wrong direction because they're trying to sell you cables. People on the internet, barring the obvious attempts at bolstering the ego, are for the most part just trying to spread info around. I consider that a purer motive.

 

[fhuang]

it is really a waste of time.......

 

[sachu]

Power cords don't do anything...its all a sham.

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quoting from Wikipedia: The burden of proof ... Check also the chart they have further down entitled "Asymmetry in the Burden of Proof," and compare the amount of burden for the claims "Fairies exists" vs. the claim "Fairies do not exist." There is only one positive claim being discussed here, and that is: "expensive power cords make an audible difference compared to decently built power cords, like simple hospital grade ones." That is only one claim, the asymmetry of the burden of proof here lies clearly on the side making such positive claim.

You make some good points, although I think they are not quite right--

I am not advocating that expensive cords are better- only that properly designed/made ones can be better than those of generic construction-- "expensive" is not the point.

also, I agree that the burden of proof, in general, can be asymmetrical, but that actually is my point. It simply begs the question that audiophile power cords are sufficiently like 'faeries' to warrant a radically asymmetrical burden of proof.

Part of what bothers me about this sort of debate, is that people make too many assumptions, and do not join the actual argument- but argue against straw men, or positions that their opponent has not actually taken.

I do not think that every so-called audiophile power cord is good, priced fairly, or gives better performance than "stock" cords -- likewise for interconnects and speaker cables.

The question is whether there are measurable and/or audible differences resulting from different cable designs/ materials/constructions. It would be useful to consider substantive claims about geometry, dielectrics, connector metallurgy, etc.....

we might actually learn something.

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't you? Unless you've got a very good audio store, asking questions there may just lead in the wrong direction because they're trying to sell you cables. People on the internet, barring the obvious attempts at bolstering the ego, are for the most part just trying to spread info around. I consider that a purer motive.

This seems like a compelling consideration, and seems like it really is correct. However, if you consider the facts-- it is really not true in the way that it is intended- as an appeal to "authority", so to speak.

1. we mostly have no idea who the internet pundit is-- and what their actual knowledge/experience/agenda really is.
2. said pundit has no responsibility incurred by giving "advice" on the net.
3. retailer is known, and has something at stake-- reputation. most businesses rely heavily on repeat business and word of mouth- if you screw people you forfeit both. any retailer that stands behind his products and offers a money-back return policy has more at stake, and is actually taking responsibility for his/her actions. the internet "expert" is simply typing words on a keyboard.

Researching online is only part of the data you should amass. Trying things for yourself is at least equally important.

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif And... time's up.

hey! you didn;t specify which time zone!!!!

 

[waterlogic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just don't buy a power cable. That is all you have to do. It is OK. Especially if you do not know anything about them. Before making such remarks about fraud. Make some cables use some silver, silver plated copper, pure copper wire with some rhodium, silver, copper , brass IEC's. Have a mini meet to audition cables with others to experience different opinions and maybe learn something new? Try this before making bold statements about "fraud" and "There are no borders to human to human stupidity" toward power cables. Please do your homework first. Go to a local audio store, ask to audition cables and ask a lot of questions. You can't get all your answers behind a computer?

I am in high-end audio for more than 25 years - and the power cable fraud is the dirtiest in this hi-end audio business. One of my best friends is 40 years in audio business - so trust me I had a chance to do my power-wire homework many many times without punishing my bank account .
If you hear a difference - it is your imagination, sure.