[sajunky]

Why stop at Nobsound? Apple dongle produces violins just as accurately and it's only $9!

Not a ladder type converter but Delta Sigma, so I am sure your claim is false.

 

[rangerid]

Now, the question is at what point we reach a level beyond which improvements are marginal enough to be ignored.

This is the big question I am trying to find for myself atm... I want to get something high end so I am not constantly looking to upgrade again but not so expensive that diminishing returns for additional dollar is next to nil.

Do different violins sound the same? I mean they're all violins, right?

Of course different DACs can sound different. Why wouldn't they if they're not identical in configuration and design (thought I understand not all differences will present audibly)? I've heard DACs I like that are a tenth of the price of mine and which make me regret spending the money. You don't in fact need to spend big money to get good DAC performance, but they CAN sound different. VERY different. I've listened to DACs in my system that are SO different it was like comparing Mozart with a herd of dying cats.

Which DACs have you heard that really impressed you (regardless of price) and which ones didn't quite live up to expectation?

 

[IgeNeLL]

I don't have any experience in desktop DACs since I've always been an IEM/portable set up type of person. I actually haven't been in the audiophile world since late 2013'ish and just returned in November this year when I bought the Stellias which I love and remain my favourite headphones. I was driving them from my iPhone 6 and iPod nano and they still blew my mind since I was upgrading them from some CIEM I bought in 2010.Then I found a massive improvement in sound when I upgraded my source to Sony WM1Z. At that point I was still reluctant to fully commit to a desktop setup.

I eventually decided to expand beyond the portable world and added an full sized tube amp (Manley Absolute) and now I am considering adding a full sized DAC to replace my WM1Z. However, I am really unsure to HOW MUCH improvement upgrading a DAC will yield considering I am in the believer that headphones > amps > dacs in importance.

To give an idea of how I hear improvements, since buying the Stellia, I've researched/tried open back counterparts including Utopia, LCD4, Empyrean, HD820, and Susvara. All of them except the Susvara had a major deal breaker somewhere in sound that I couldn't overlook. Susvara is the only 1 that did nothing wrong to my ears and I bought those to complement my Stellia. In comparison, the Susvaras are clearly a level above Stellia in every comparable category like sound stage, imaging, separation, detail retrieval, dynamics, etc... How much improvement I perceived in technical performance from Stellia to Susvara is what led me to asking the question in this thread.

The improvements were noticeable but it definitely wasn't night and day difference. For example, I heard small details in songs on Susvara that I never heard on Stellia, like maybe a bell in the background somewhere, echos, or small bass beats in the distance, nothing major, just little extras here and there. Images had a sharper outlines around them and so forth. It's hard to put a numerical value to these improvement but if I had to I'd say it's 10-15% improvement in technicalities.

So, if I perceive a 10-15% performance improvement from Stellia to Susvara, how much improvement will I perceive if I upgrade from WM1Z as my DAC to something like TT2+MScaler or DAVE?

I am aware of the diminishing returns in each dollar spent. However, is the performance gap between the DAC in the WM1Z and something like TT2 greater than that of the Stellia to Susvara, leading to more significant improvements overall?

Edit:
To expand a bit on what I am looking for, I enjoy WM1Z's rich, organic, laid back sound signature. I do NOT like forward, aggressive, analytical & bright sound signatures.

My "perfect" or "ideal" sound signature is warm, natural, slight bass/treble emphasis, wide & deep soundstage for EDM/Trance/Techno/Retro, hip hop/rap, r&b, and pop (I don't listen to any other genres). Extracting every last detail & technical precision isn't as important as overall enjoyability of the music

So, if I perceive a 10-15% performance improvement from Stellia to Susvara, how much improvement will I perceive if I upgrade from WM1Z as my DAC to something like TT2+MScaler or DAVE?

=> Might be 2 to 3 times better in DAC section

 

[BassicScience]

So, if I perceive a 10-15% performance improvement from Stellia to Susvara, how much improvement will I perceive if I upgrade from WM1Z as my DAC to something like TT2+MScaler or DAVE?

=> Might be 2 to 3 times better in DAC section

I'm not sure it's possible to answer your question. From my perspective, Susvara and Stellia are in completely different leagues, so obviously everyone hears things differently. You probably need to arrange to audition some DACs of interest. Worst case, buy something used and resell it if you don't like it. You don't really need to spend more than a few grand to get a DAC that'll be about 98% of the state-of-the-art sonically. Personally, I think the Chord products are overrated and overpriced, but a lot of people on this site seem to love them.

 

[sajunky]

Personally, I think the Chord products are overrated and overpriced, but a lot of people on this site seem to love them.

Marketing works together with placebo effect. And I'd like to see how we can measure satisfaction on a percentage scale.

 

[NYanakiev]

I'm not sure it's possible to answer your question. From my perspective, Susvara and Stellia are in completely different leagues, so obviously everyone hears things differently. You probably need to arrange to audition some DACs of interest. Worst case, buy something used and resell it if you don't like it. You don't really need to spend more than a few grand to get a DAC that'll be about 98% of the state-of-the-art sonically. Personally, I think the Chord products are overrated and overpriced, but a lot of people on this site seem to love them.

Depends on the product. Mojo/Qutest/Hugo 2 are absolutely fantastic.

 

[rangerid]

So, if I perceive a 10-15% performance improvement from Stellia to Susvara, how much improvement will I perceive if I upgrade from WM1Z as my DAC to something like TT2+MScaler or DAVE?

=> Might be 2 to 3 times better in DAC section

I am really hoping so but we'll see...

I'm not sure it's possible to answer your question. From my perspective, Susvara and Stellia are in completely different leagues, so obviously everyone hears things differently. You probably need to arrange to audition some DACs of interest. Worst case, buy something used and resell it if you don't like it. You don't really need to spend more than a few grand to get a DAC that'll be about 98% of the state-of-the-art sonically. Personally, I think the Chord products are overrated and overpriced, but a lot of people on this site seem to love them.

True, I realize we all hear things differently and it's very hard to put a numeric value to sound. There's a lockdown of non essential businesses where I live until next at least next month. I might buy some used and resell to try stuff out in meantime. The reason I have Chord stuff on top of my list is the form factor. I didn't realize before I really researched desktop DACs but almost all of them are freaking HUGE. I keep all my audio stuff on a small 2'x2' coffee table next to my couch where I listen to music atm so I might need to look into moving my setup.

Marketing works together with placebo effect. And I'd like to see how we can measure satisfaction on a percentage scale.

Haha I am not sure how much placebo effect I will get since I don't even know what to expect. I've been reading reviews on a lot of different Dacs past few days and most reviews are very vague when it comes to the actual sound quality, most of it is talking about features I will never use...

Depends on the product. Mojo/Qutest/Hugo 2 are absolutely fantastic.

I will definitely keep those in mind!

 

[NYanakiev]

I am really hoping so but we'll see...



True, I realize we all hear things differently and it's very hard to put a numeric value to sound. There's a lockdown of non essential businesses where I live until next at least next month. I might buy some used and resell to try stuff out in meantime. The reason I have Chord stuff on top of my list is the form factor. I didn't realize before I really researched desktop DACs but almost all of them are freaking HUGE. I keep all my audio stuff on a small 2'x2' coffee table next to my couch where I listen to music atm so I might need to look into moving my setup.



Haha I am not sure how much placebo effect I will get since I don't even know what to expect. I've been reading reviews on a lot of different Dacs past few days and most reviews are very vague when it comes to the actual sound quality, most of it is talking about features I will never use...



I will definitely keep those in mind!

Mojo is a little anaemic for full size cans but the Hugo 2 works really well with my Utopias.

 

[sajunky]

Haha I am not sure how much placebo effect I will get since I don't even know what to expect. I've been reading reviews on a lot of different Dacs past few days and most reviews are very vague when it comes to the actual sound quality, most of it is talking about features I will never use...

This is right, as they have nothing to say. While all post point to a cheap Delta Sigma stuff with a BOM well below $80 (while some cost >$1k), perhaps you should try this: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/N11.28PE/NFB1128PEN.htm

Or for music lovers, try truly natural sound of NOS DAC from the same brand: http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm

 

[driftingbunnies]

I'm not sure I would put a NFB-11.28 and R2R 11 with high end DACs. It would be interesting and cheaper to purchase those and compare to the W1MZ to see if you can hear any difference though. If they're better, then you just saved yourself thousands of dollars.

 

[sajunky]

I'm not sure I would put a NFB-11.28 and R2R 11 with high end DACs. It would be interesting and cheaper to purchase those and compare to the W1MZ to see if you can hear any difference though. If they're better, then you just saved yourself thousands of dollars.

Discussion has shifted to Mojo, Hugo and a linear percentage scale, it is why my post. I can't compare with W1MZ, but I own R2R-11 and I can say it has all properties of high-end sound, except of a silky smooth presentation. Such sound only comes after careful removing of ground loops and any internal or external electromagnetic polution, it comes at a cost. If afforded I would imediately upgrade to their high-end stuff like R-7HE.

For now R2R-11 create desire for better sound without deteriorating a musical taste, just improving. The best scale of the customer satisfaction from the current gear is how your music library has increased till receiving tthe unit. Check yourself, mine is overflowing hard drives at the moment, have to invest in a new NAS.

 

[Articnoise]

I don't care much about measurements THD etc, but if it has as high coloration as Audio-gd R2R11 DAC it can't sound good and correct.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

 

[driftingbunnies]

I don't care much about measurements THD etc, but if it has as high coloration as Audio-gd R2R11 DAC it can't sound good and correct.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

Good and correct can be different things when describing music.

 

[sajunky]

I don't care much about measurements THD etc, but if it has as high coloration as Audio-gd R2R11 DAC it can't sound good and correct.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

Coloration? It is seen on measurements. Listening tests quote "Importantly, there was NO coloration in response of Audio-gd". Yip, it came as a surprise after all measuring mess. But still no conclusion what was wrong.

It won't measure well, due to a ladder R2R type an NOS.
It can't measure well as the unit was initiating recalibration process every 25 second or so (it is mentioned in a text). It was in result of ground loops intefering internal operation! Look at traces of 60Hz and 100Hz on the FFT dashboard plot. A 100Hz trace is 30dB above a floor level, with its harmonics not much lower and extending well above 1kHz. This is a hudge disturbance. What is interesting, Amir cannot blame R2R-11 for ground loops, as it comes from his 50Hz power generator. It is not only a botchered test by Amir. With the same equipment setup, there are more. It will help if you read my response on a Total DAC test, it was a time I was banned from the ASR for disrespect: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/

It is worth to note that Total DAC is a high-end stuff and is designed to protect from the external interference, but it couldn't afford it. R2R-11 is a cheapest DAC in the Audio GD product line.

At the time I didn't own R2R-11 yet, but have been very dissappointed from a Topping D30. Understanding these tests helped me in a purchasing decision and I can say R2R-11 was the best purchase I ever made.

 

[Articnoise]

Good and correct can be different things when describing music.

Yes but we are talking about DACs here .