[Zalithian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with those who disbelieve in "burn in". There is no evidence that burn in occurs beyond a few seconds. There is, however, a great deal of evidence that people adapt to sound quality. If given enough time any reasonable responce curve will eventually sound "right". What has changed, however, is not the curve, but the person.

Believe what you like. I'll believe what I hear. That argument about people adapting always amuses me, however. I find it hard to believe I've adapted to something when I've only listened to it initially and not again until burn in is complete.

 

[gameboy115]

20000 hr + at least. Yea, I am messing with you

Mine went to acceptable level when it passed about 200 hrs......

Rumor it needs 400-700hrs to be up to its peak

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GN85 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, burn in exists with the IE8. At first, the bass was too muddy and excessive on my pair. Took a good 20 hours of burn in for the bass to tighten up. But....... Don't take posts like this too seriously. See some people like to think that their IEMs are like an aging whine. Obviously it's not the case.

Or aging like wine! I had another IEM I was A/Bing the entire burn in time, the PFE. I could hear changes with the IE8 but the PFE was steady. I have it documented here.

Muddy and slow out of the box. There is no possible way they sound the same as when I first listened and it is all in my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by decay /img/forum/go_quote.gif What you really notice after a period of time if you listen to the same set of songs daily is some small subtle detail you failed to notice the day before, maybe another scratch here some more vibration there someone slightly coughed in the background far far away, etc.

Well put!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think burn-in is a myth, period. Doubly so when it's got no moving parts. If it were, how come the overwhelming majority always prefer the way a piece of kit sounds later, if it changes so noticeably from day 1? None of my equipment has changed from the day I've had it. I got a DACmagic on loan for a few weeks, that was well used, and then bought my own new, and it sounded the same. The only 'change' I've heard is with my IEM's which were, to me, dark and quite bassy intially, but now I don't notice these things that were more prominent; my perception and listening filtered certain things. People who I've let listen to them recently (icky, but they're family) always say "Oo, deep, bassy..." I'll duck now, as the rotten fruit flies...

The IEM no moving parts has been answered as you don't have sound waves without creating pressure by moving air. And in silicon (and some other materials) there are moving parts, electrons. Just because you can't see them move, they still do. But hey, I believe in material science!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif Believe what you like. I'll believe what I hear. That argument about people adapting always amuses me, however. I find it hard to believe I've adapted to something when I've only listened to it initially and not again until burn in is complete.

X2, well put!

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif Believe what you like. I'll believe what I hear. That argument about people adapting always amuses me, however. I find it hard to believe I've adapted to something when I've only listened to it initially and not again until burn in is complete.

I believe what I hear too, and they tell me nothing's changed. Why does someone else's experience amuse you, when it not yours? And if your ears and brain can make you believe you hear soundstage effects from two speakers mm from your ears, what else might they be capable of?

If it can't be measured, its validity can be questioned, just as two people can differently hear how wide soundstage is from the same headphone. And going on the comments here alone, one IEM takes anything from 50-700 hrs for the magic to happen.

People can believe what they wish. It's strange though, it's only at head fi where burn-in is taken as conventional wisdom, and has an almost religious following.

 

[Zalithian]

I'm not sure where you're thinking I'm amused at other peoples experience. I'm amused at people telling me that I'm adapting to the sound when it's not possible it occurred.. as I did not listen for anything except for a comparison.

What gear have you tried that tells you nothing changed? The IE8's?

Quote:

And if your ears and brain can make you believe you hear soundstage effects from two speakers mm from your ears, what else might they be capable of?

I can throw the same argument back at you. If you believe nothing will change, maybe something is changing but your brain is tricking you into thinking it isn't.

Outside of head-fi, not all that many people are very serious about audio. Well, I wouldn't go that far. There are a lot of place/people serious about audio, and head-fi is certainly not the only one where burn in is conventional wisdom.

I've had several BA phones, and several dynamics. The dynamics always change over time, while the BA's don't (unless they have crossovers etc, but that's a whole new topic)

Doesn't matter if someone believes in burn in or not, so there's no point debating this. If people believe in it, they can burn their own stuff in. If they don't believe it exists, they don't need to waste their time.

 

[raymondu999]

Hear hear!!

 

[james444]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif If it can't be measured, its validity can be questioned

In fact I wonder has there ever been a serious effort to document burn-in effect such as measuring frequence response before and after and comparing the graphs?

 

[average_joe]

How many pages will it go on this time before being lost in obscurity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif If it can't be measured, its validity can be questioned, just as two people can differently hear how wide soundstage is from the same headphone. And going on the comments here alone, one IEM takes anything from 50-700 hrs for the magic to happen. People can believe what they wish. It's strange though, it's only at head fi where burn-in is taken as conventional wisdom, and has an almost religious following.

Fact: all materials change over time. If/how it affects the sound is the debate.

So, I went into my local high end audio store a few months back, Digital Ear. They had the flagship Focal speakers, the Grande Utopia. When I asked to listen the salesperson warned me they were still burning in so their sound would change.

He must be a head-fier, huh. </sarcasm>

And there are so many factors that play into how someone perceives burn in such as volume, tips, fit, source, genre, etc.

But the biggest factor is your head. Do you allow yourself to notice possible changes? Does everyone/anyone have hearing (ear function + brain interpretation) that allows them to hear/remember difference in sound?

 

[GN85]

For those who don't believe in burn in, how would you explain that all of us that have listened to our IE8 out of the box, and after several hours, observed an improvement of the sound quality in very similar ways?

 

[Zalithian]

We obviously tricked ourselves, GN85.

 

[soozieq]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilney /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I first joined the forum, the "magical number" was 200. After a while, it was 250; then 350; then 450.... now 600.

What?! Only 600? I think I've seen 750 to 1000 hours posted. It goes up all the time you know. Anyway, mine sounded just fine out of the box, and after 10/20 hours they'd 'settled' and I didn't hear any noticeable changes after that.

And for what it's worth, I was told that the designer of the Sennheiser HD800 recommended just 24 hours burn in for the flagship model... and yet somehow... it takes almost a thousand hours more to burn in the IE8...

Having said that, I don't dispute for a second what people hear. They can say I don't know good sound if I thought they were great straight out of the box with their supposedly fat muddy bass, recessed midrange and flaccid treble - and I can say they're off their flaming rockers if they really think the IE8 needs almost a thousand hours of burn in

No one's right and no one's wrong. I can't tell what anyone else hears, and no one else can tell what I hear - end of story

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by james444 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact I wonder has there ever been a serious effort to document burn-in effect such as measuring frequence response before and after and comparing the graphs?

Too lazy to search, but there was an internet magazine or something of the sort that was going to perform tests to prove/disprove burn in. Maybe 1-2 weeks ago.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GN85 /img/forum/go_quote.gif For those who don't believe in burn in, how would you explain that all of us that have listened to our IE8 out of the box, and after several hours, observed an improvement of the sound quality in very similar ways?

How would you explain that HPA had a similar burn in experience to mine, yet his occurred maybe 100 hours later (I burned in with loud test tones & music, not just music)? And he is not the only person that had very similar experiences over an extended period of time?

And I don't think people are saying there are dramatic changes between say 200 and 1000 hours (or whatever upper limit you want to use), but slight but noticeable changes, at least to some of us.

But then when I listen in an effort to describe the sound here I pay attention to the details in the music and will even replay songs/parts just to hear the details/differences. I also casually listen, where I can hear differences to a large extent. When I am distracted listening I might not remember if I have my IE8 or NE-7 in my ears, or if the song I am listening to had cymbals.

 

[Drubbing]

I see the faithful rally around very quicky. Repel the boarders! We have a non believer, we shall attempt to ridicule and cast out, lest he infect others with his dissenting view!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm amused at people telling me that I'm adapting to the sound when it's not possible it occurred.. as I did not listen for anything except for a comparison. .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can throw the same argument back at you. If you believe nothing will change, maybe something is changing but your brain is tricking you into thinking it isn't..

I can do same. if you believe something will change, why can't you be tricked into thinking it has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif What gear have you tried that tells you nothing changed? The IE8's? ..

DACmagic, Hot Audio DAC, MS1, DT250, Koss KSC75, Corda Amp. All products forum posters have said take X amt of hours to burn in. The Hot Audio being the only one where the maker claimed 30 hrs was the norm. I held a open view about the concept before hearing any gear I bought, and in the case of the Hot audio, actually listened for a short while beforehand, before letting it 'burn-in' to see if it did change, such was the underwhelming reaction I had to listening to it - I wanted it to burn-in.

And as others probably do with new gear, I was applying critical listening with very familiar tracks. After a while, I was wary of trying too hard via AB's so just listened for a long time without analysis. It didn't get any better/different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are a lot of place/people serious about audio, and head-fi is certainly not the only one where burn in is conventional wisdom.

None that I've visited where it is anywhere near as fervent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalithian /img/forum/go_quote.gif If people believe in it, they can burn their own stuff in. If they don't believe it exists, they don't need to waste their time.

I agree, but I think it unfair to present it a fait accomplis/conventional wisdom, before people new to headphones can make up their own minds, and therefore have unrealistic expectations of what may or may not happen.

 

[Zalithian]

Quote:

I can do same. if you believe something will change, why can't you be tricked into thinking it has.

My point wasn't to convince you that my mind couldn't trick me into thinking it existed. My point was simply to show you it goes both ways, which really cancels out any true possibility of discussion in regards to that situation.

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I agree, but I think it unfair to present it a fait accomplis/conventional wisdom, before people can make up their own minds, and therfore have unrealistic expectations of what may or may not happen. But I realise I'm swimming against the tide.

I don't think there's anything unfair about it. People always have the option to make up their own mind on what they want to believe. Some people tell me god exists and if I pray he'll make everything better. Doesn't mean I need to believe it, but if I did and didn't achieve the expected results you could deem that unfair as well since it's conventional wisdom to people who are religious, no?

It's up to the person to validate through and do their own research. Nobody is forcing them to burn things in. There's nothing unfair going on here. I don't think anyone yells at people for saying they didn't notice any changes as time went on, although I could be mistaken.

tldr:

People have the freedom to decide whether or not they believe in burn in. I don't have a problem with people disbelieving in it, but each person should be deciding for themselves. If they hear a difference, great. If they don't, great.