[littlebear]

Longish story short (Edit: okay, not that short) - I fell in love with electrostats (as you do) but needed closed-back for work, so I literally had to get the SR-4070. I've always been a studio monitor type person anyway so that part didn't deter me none. Too clinical? What are you talking about, I want ALL the detail.

...Fast forward three months while they really are made to order, apparently...

Now I have them, however, I'm having some difficulty listening to them. No, I don't actually find them too heavy and weirdly they seem to get more comfortable the longer I wear them - even having people walk past me at work and start laughing cos I look like a computer operator on the Death Star hasn't deterred me from giving them my best shot... but while I do indeed hear things that I don't even hear on the O2, I hear a tad too much of them if they're of the treble variety, if you get what I mean!

I've heard people talk about them as bright on this forum, but also people talk about them as neutral. I'm listening to them through the SRM-717, which is at least talked about as *fairly* neutral (is it bright?) and sounds very lifelike with the O2. The other suspect link in the chain seems to be the Benchmark DAC1 USB, which could also be bright - but I've tried them with vinyl also and even my iPhone, all with an unmistakeable borderline harshness of the treble which makes the sound nothing like reality. I would describe the O2 in my system as like simply "being there", whereas the 4070 is like "looking at there with a magnifying glass under a harsh lamp."

Is it because they're designed that way, as studio monitors? It is true, they're evil at exposing detail - think your recording doesn't have hiss on it? Listen through these and think again. Want to hear that reverb? These are the ones. Even more so than the DT48 (kbi, are you listening? ) But I can't help thinking, an engineer who mixed on these would produce a muddy lump on other systems - maybe it doesn't work that way and if you know the sound you can account for it? That's okay for my audio work with field recordings etc., but it's a shame as these are supposed to be my primary listening headphones also.

Any suggestions? I've tried EQ in software to no avail. Would some tubes calm them down? I've never tried them... Or perhaps a more neutal amp and/or DAC? I'm thinking Audio-gd Reference + KGSS here. Like I said, I DO like detail

- and it's tempting to think I can just throw money at the problem... but I already have! This is not a subtle thing, folks. For the money, should these really be so far off?

Full disclosure:

(Mac -> Optical/USB crappiness -> Benchmark DAC1 USB -> Cardas Neutral Reference Balanced XLR)* -> STAX SRM-717 -> STAX SR-4070

* Also: Rega Planar 3 w/RB300 & Sumiko Blue Point II -> ATC CA2 -> Cable Talk RCA
iPhone -> Kimber GQ Mini CU
Mac -> crappiness -> HeadRoom Micro DAC -> Kimber GQ Mini CU

Comments very welcome!

 

[JaZZ]

It did sound bright and lean to me – through an SRM-007t and a modified SRM-T1 fed by the McCormack UDP-1. Nevertheless it was listenable, just not neutral in my understanding. I suppose it may sound smoother and maybe fuller after a break-in period of 100 or 200 hours. And yes, the DAC1 is on the bright and lean side as well.
.

 

[spritzer]

The DAC-1 is IMO a terrible source and the 4070 will reveal that ruthlessly. They are designed to be monitor headphones so they sound a bit sterile but very even handed over all. Just like the SR-X line they lack bass bloom but provide superior insight into the lower registers instead.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebear /img/forum/go_quote.gif Longish story short (Edit: okay, not that short) - I fell in love with electrostats (as you do) but needed closed-back for work, so I literally had to get the SR-4070. I've always been a studio monitor type person anyway so that part didn't deter me none. Too clinical? What are you talking about, I want ALL the detail. ...Fast forward three months while they really are made to order, apparently... Now I have them, however, I'm having some difficulty listening to them. No, I don't actually find them too heavy and weirdly they seem to get more comfortable the longer I wear them - even having people walk past me at work and start laughing cos I look like a computer operator on the Death Star hasn't deterred me from giving them my best shot... but while I do indeed hear things that I don't even hear on the O2, I hear a tad too much of them if they're of the treble variety, if you get what I mean! I've heard people talk about them as bright on this forum, but also people talk about them as neutral. I'm listening to them through the SRM-717, which is at least talked about as *fairly* neutral (is it bright?) and sounds very lifelike with the O2. The other suspect link in the chain seems to be the Benchmark DAC1 USB, which could also be bright - but I've tried them with vinyl also and even my iPhone, all with an unmistakeable borderline harshness of the treble which makes the sound nothing like reality. I would describe the O2 in my system as like simply "being there", whereas the 4070 is like "looking at there with a magnifying glass under a harsh lamp." Is it because they're designed that way, as studio monitors? It is true, they're evil at exposing detail - think your recording doesn't have hiss on it? Listen through these and think again. Want to hear that reverb? These are the ones. Even more so than the DT48 (kbi, are you listening? ) But I can't help thinking, an engineer who mixed on these would produce a muddy lump on other systems - maybe it doesn't work that way and if you know the sound you can account for it? That's okay for my audio work with field recordings etc., but it's a shame as these are supposed to be my primary listening headphones also. Any suggestions? I've tried EQ in software to no avail. Would some tubes calm them down? I've never tried them... Or perhaps a more neutal amp and/or DAC? I'm thinking Audio-gd Reference + KGSS here. Like I said, I DO like detail - and it's tempting to think I can just throw money at the problem... but I already have! This is not a subtle thing, folks. For the money, should these really be so far off? Full disclosure: (Mac -> Optical/USB crappiness -> Benchmark DAC1 USB -> Cardas Neutral Reference Balanced XLR)* -> STAX SRM-717 -> STAX SR-4070 * Also: Rega Planar 3 w/RB300 & Sumiko Blue Point II -> ATC CA2 -> Cable Talk RCA iPhone -> Kimber GQ Mini CU Mac -> crappiness -> HeadRoom Micro DAC -> Kimber GQ Mini CU Comments very welcome!

Yes, I would expect the 4070 to be more resolving then the DT48. No argument there. (Contrary to popular belief, I don't think they are the greatest headphone ever created, just very under appreciated.) that's why I only compare the DT48 detail to other dynamics, NOT electros.. The 4070 are my dream Stax headphone, & you mentioning the DT48 just reinforces what I already knew..

 

[littlebear]

Thanks. Yes, it could be a "total load" situation, where everything is a little on the bright side... but then I have tried to bypass everything except the SRM-717 (I don't have access to any other stat amps right now) and felt the same to a certain extent. I was disappointed when vinyl was the same... Maybe all my system is bright? Actually I think the iPhone did best

Leanness: They do have great bass *extension*, and often the bass is very nicely balanced and detailed, so I get the feeling it's just cos of the treble emphasis that the bass seems reduced overall. (Or perhaps it's the other way around, eh!)

Then there's the whole "what is neutral" thing I suppose... but my take on that is: a neutral playback device should render the recording accurately, so it should sound like real life (natural) if the recording does. The best way I have of testing this is making my own recordings with devices of a known sound, or listening to recordings that have a known sound (across a variety of playback devices.) But this is academic - I ain't hearing any real-sounding playback here... In terms of frequency response anyway! The detail IS awesome, helped by the isolation. Stereo coherence is also great. However, I was also disappointed when my binaural field recordings did not play back with the same level of spatialization of the O2, and I think this is because the frequency spectrum cues (that the brain uses, among other things, to locate things binaurally) are off.

So, get rid of the DAC1 do we think? What would be better?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebear /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, get rid of the DAC1 do we think? What would be better?

Before this drastic measure, give the SR-4070 some more time to break in! If that doesn't help, go for a fuller source. I consider both of mine – McCormack UDP-1 and Bel Canto DAC2 – on the warm(er) side of neutral, but I don't have experience with other, up-to-date sources. Maybe a Lavry DA11? If that doesn't help, give up on the SR-4070.
.

 

[Happy Camper]

You could try a tube buffer to determine your interest in tubes.

 

[keithhr1]

I'll bet money that the interconnect cable that is being hooked up from the source is causing the brightness. There is by far, more distortion being introduced into the signal path via the cabling than anything else. As a matter of fact , most audiophiles wind up spending all of their money buying components that undo the filter effects of the cabling by buying, tube, solid state, rolled off speakers, bright speakers etc, when a totally neutral cable doesn't cause this type of problem. Of course wiring in the headphone cables can be a culprit as well. Best way is to listen to the sound coming directly from a dac that has a decent headphone output, thereby eliminating the first source of cable distortion. I only buy headphones that can be recabled and have just purchased the Sennheiser hd-800's and the AKG K-702's for that reasone

 

[Ashirgo]

keithhr1, your approach is kind of... idiosyncratic, if you know what I mean.

 

[littlebear]

@JazZ: But I can't give up on the SR-4070! They're the only closed-back electrostat in the world!

(Semi-kidding...)

@keithhr1: I admit that your approach does seem to be from a different planet to the one I have lived on up until now - but it would be the cheapest change to make I guess! As I was writing the word "crappiness" in the OP the thought did cross my mind... any recommendations for good "neutral" optical or USB cables? And besides, which is better?

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebear /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks. Yes, it could be a "total load" situation, where everything is a little on the bright side... but then I have tried to bypass everything except the SRM-717 (I don't have access to any other stat amps right now) and felt the same to a certain extent. I was disappointed when vinyl was the same... Maybe all my system is bright? Actually I think the iPhone did best Leanness: They do have great bass *extension*, and often the bass is very nicely balanced and detailed, so I get the feeling it's just cos of the treble emphasis that the bass seems reduced overall. (Or perhaps it's the other way around, eh!) Then there's the whole "what is neutral" thing I suppose... but my take on that is: a neutral playback device should render the recording accurately, so it should sound like real life (natural) if the recording does. The best way I have of testing this is making my own recordings with devices of a known sound, or listening to recordings that have a known sound (across a variety of playback devices.) But this is academic - I ain't hearing any real-sounding playback here... In terms of frequency response anyway! The detail IS awesome, helped by the isolation. Stereo coherence is also great. However, I was also disappointed when my binaural field recordings did not play back with the same level of spatialization of the O2, and I think this is because the frequency spectrum cues (that the brain uses, among other things, to locate things binaurally) are off. So, get rid of the DAC1 do we think? What would be better?

Aren't you the guy that sold me the 1950's DT48A..

They are the most detailed DT48 I have heard or owned.. So the 4070 must be incredible. I know you thoroughly enjoyed the DT48, so you are not being bias or a 'hater'... The 4070 must be something else in terms of detail & resolve, cause I hold the DT48a in high regard for detail & resolve. Wish I had 1,800 to spend on the 4070

If/when I go STAX I want the high end stuff.. The mistake I made with dynamics was taking baby steps, which lead to a lot of buying & selling.. I see the 4070 as ending my upgraditis, unless the Q10 can be found for under 2,000..

 

[GuyDebord]

Due to the 4070's I had to remove a Benchmark from the chain, I now use the Aqvox usb2mkII which pairs perfectly and with my vinyl rig is simply magical. I many times prefer the 4070's over the 007's, I find their treble perfectly musical with absolutely no over-emphasis. I am also of the opinion that they have better synergy with tubes, my GES drives them incredibly well, actually better than the 007tII or the 727II, nevertheless the last thing that came in to my mind when I tested these amps was "brightness". I think something in your chain is causing this, perhaps the dac, a bad cable-connection....

Im not surprised that JaZZ comes with these comments, especially because hes a guy that seems to prefer the HD800's over his stats (at least he has said so). I actually found the HD800's much, much more clinical than the 4070's. The belcanto he suggests is a good option also.

I certainly would not give up on this one, IMO this headphone is THE best closed ever made! You should also experiment with your rega, use other cables, I bet the sound will be much better...

good luck and keep us posted

 

[littlebear]

KBI: Awesome - I'm really glad the DT48A are winners for you. I agree that they're under-appreciated and a fundamental design classic.

Electrostats are a profoundly different headphone paradigm (a stream NOT based on the DT48 I guess ) and so sound different in ways that are hard to qualify. As far as getting the high end first though, I think you might be very pleasantly surprised by the SR-003/SR-001MK2 actually, at least in terms of detail - its tiny, thin driver makes it the fastest headphone, I was reading somewhere here - although it might have too much bass (and rolled off treble) for you, and it does go in the ear. Anyway, that was the one that made me sell the DT48 and start savin'

It's true that the 4070 ends upgraditis though, as there's nowhere to go

(Except, apparently, with the amp, DAC, etc... aarrghh!)

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebear /img/forum/go_quote.gif KBI: Awesome - I'm really glad the DT48A are winners for you. I agree that they're under-appreciated and a fundamental design classic. Electrostats are a profoundly different headphone paradigm (a stream NOT based on the DT48 I guess ) and so sound different in ways that are hard to qualify. As far as getting the high end first though, I think you might be very pleasantly surprised by the SR-003/SR-001MK2 actually, at least in terms of detail - its tiny, thin driver makes it the fastest headphone, I was reading somewhere here - although it might have too much bass (and rolled off treble) for you, and it does go in the ear. Anyway, that was the one that made me sell the DT48 and start savin' It's true that the 4070 ends upgraditis though, as there's nowhere to go (Except, apparently, with the amp, DAC, etc... aarrghh!)

My Belcanto DAC 2 really mellowed my bright GP headphone amp. Just a suggestion. The DT48a you sold me are winners, even had them recabled with APS V3 with a futurtech plug. The original cable was actually spliced so I do notice some improvements. Glad you like your 4070.

 

[littlebear]

Yes, I do like them - which is why it's painful to have this problem (that and adding insult to the wallet injury, of course

)

So, @GuyDebord, this is music to my ears! I certainly *want* them to be the best

I will keep playing with things... Aqvox! Damn, how many DACs are there out there these days?! Well, that's another option to think about. Thanks! But first, the cabling...

Edit: Or maybe before that my head cabling - of course now I'm really looking for the harshness in the treble, I can't find it as much... either they or me are breaking in, or perhaps it's the nice glass of bourbon

In either case, let's see how they sound in the morning!