[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightbitpotion /img/forum/go_quote.gif oh man, me too....I LOVE acid (cables). I think another thing that's extremely overlooked.... modding. I know it's almost a dirty word, but I disagree....I've rewired some cheapies and they turned into CRAZY things. If anyone sees this that's going to the dallas meet on the 28th...you'll see what I mean when I pull out Frankensteins . Don't forget the MOST important aspect of everything you've read about, and that you see laid out upon your desk..... it's about enjoyment, not the most expensive. I started getting into this stuff because I ADORE music more than life, and that's one thing that I believe is overlooked- the music. Let's say we DON'T overlook it, and we enjoy it very much: headphones are the same, and if you DO enjoy your music...the headphones are, indeed, doing their job. The better it sounds to you, the better the phones are- regardless of price tag, or a "high-end" label.

Eeek. This wonderful thread sure took a nose-dive. Maybe it's run its course, but if you're going to post, guys, at least read the whole thread first and refrain from adding inanities, though I've dropped in a few myself (sorry).

Eightbitpotion, I think most everyone here embraces modding, and I'm not just talking about recables, which I think most people do asap to most headphones, but significant to full mods depending on the gear. The Denons are barely out and headphile is already doing open screen mods. I suspect any day soon the DIY guys will be posting pictures of mods. The Canamp went from a good FOTM amp to a modder's amp. Of my five full-sized cans, two are modded, three have after-market cables, and I'm currently researching hardwire options for my K1000s but already have an aftermarket tail (some have done screen mods as well that I'm too wimpy to try...but never say never). My portable source is an imod and my main source is a heavily modded Denon 2900. I'm thinking of selling my second system's CDP just to get more mods on the Denon. If I consider all the upgrades I've added to the stock version of my amp, they could count as mods, but maybe not. I have another amp currently with a DIY head-fier friend for mods. Mods are certainly one way in which we try to bring low-fi (thinking the KSC-75s) and mid-fi gear up a notch. Most of us are pretty eager, and I think that while we sometimes debate endlessly on what gear to get, once we have it, we'll mod it fairly quickly if we think it can be improved.

I think a more interesting phemonemon is that many of us read up on mods here, then just get them done without having heard them first. I sent a stock pair of K340s to Larry, paid more than the phones are worth stock for mods I'd never heard, and bought a matching stand to boot. Same with the DT770/80s. Fortunately, I've been very happy with the results. None the less, there's a strange level of trust regarding the sonic benefits of mods which doesn't make sense on one level, except perhaps an appeal to our curiosity. I dunno. Some of that may have to do with who is doing what and who is posting whatever about the results, but it is still curious. We tend to believe what we read and then go for it, all to hopefully get that little bit, or a lot bit, more from our gear.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

I am asking for input and insight into just how good those cans can sound without wondering in to HE90, R10, L3000, O2, etc, territory. How great can they possibly sound?

I'm obviously going against the grain here, but IME connecting the european mass produced headphones to very expensive upstream electronics doesn't make much sense.
I have auditioned most decent headphones in existence and my conclusion is:
Get the best transducer you can afford.You can always add better upstream electronics later.
I have auditioned the Senns (famed for their scaling capabilities) recabled in balanced mode several times connected to Rudistor and Headroom amps and my own balanced speaker amp. It's true, balanced sounds better, but the bang for the buck ratio isn't particularly good.
You can pimp your Senn with whatever you want but it won't sound as good as my basic Omega II setup.My main speaker amp is on repair and currently my Omega setup consists of a modded SRD 7 Pro transformer and a $110 Audiodigit T2020 kit amp (a decent tripath based class D amp).
That's cheaper than any pimped Senn setup, and the Senn stuff doesn't even come close.
I know, you could always argue that the rigs I've heard still weren't expensive enough (though the most expensive was deep into the 5 digit range due to the expensive TT) and if I've invested another $20000 the Senn would really shine, but the Omegas scale as well and the difference will always be there.
Frankly, I doubt that a totally pimped out Senn setup would sound better than a very basic Stax Omega setup.
I did have a similar experience with the old R10.Combined with my cheap old (but somewhat synergistic) Rudistor RP31 it did sound better than any pimped Senn.

In the speaker world it's common knowledge that you should invest the majority of your budget into the transducers, and IME the same holds true for headphones.

 

[tbonner1]

Quote:

a thousand dollar setup can be at par with say a forty thousand dollar home system.

Not sure about the price points, but the upper end headphone systems are capable of great definition.

Today, many CD's are mixed mostly with headphones and Protools with monitor speakers used as a reference, not as the primary tool.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frankly, I doubt that a totally pimped out Senn setup would sound better than a very basic Stax Omega setup.

The Omega II even sounds good out of the horrible SRM-313 but a monster amp will make them better then most speakers in those areas where these two transducers can be compared. The SR-007 is simply much better but they aren't for every body.

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the speaker world it's common knowledge that you should invest the majority of your budget into the transducers, and IME the same holds true for headphones.

It's your room size which should dictate how much you can spend on transducers. You can't fit most of $20,000+ speakers in a small room, but in that small room you can drive $5,000 speakers with $20,000 electronics and get awesome sound.

Anyway, money should be spend first in a good acoustically treated dedicated listening room.

 

[wower]

1. I'm totally in the front-end first camp. Why plug a Esoteric E-03 LE into KC75 I will never know. Plug in Wilson Audio or B&W into an iPod and atleast you have a fight chance. At least in my experience...

2. Removing - completely - the effects of room on sonics is what catapults a $3000 headphone rig into the $20,000 speaker rig territory. Accoustics is a tough science..

 

[Asr]

How high is the Fi, you ask? Extremely high, as I've found.

I've spent a good amount of time with all four high-end open dynamic headphones - the 2006 DT880, K701, HD650, and AD2000. While I no longer have the DT880 and hence can't speak for it specifically, I've personally witnessed the scaling possible on the K701, HD650, and AD2000, and it's more than I ever could have thought was possible.

I've been through a fair number of sources and amps - not really "high-end" per se, but nothing to sneeze at. The most expensive sources I've heard remain (in price-increasing order): CEC CD3300, Cambridge Audio Azur 640C V2, Arcam DiVA CD73, Audio Aero Prima 24/192, Arcam FMJ CD33. $2500 (original SRP, not what I paid for it) on the CD33 might seem like chump change to someone who's used to Esoteric, EMM Labs, Wadia, et al, but to date that's the most expensive source I've used, and based on all the reviews out there, it's good enough to hang with the likes of various other single-ended CDPs from brands like Naim, Cyrus, Meridian, etc. Does that mean it's low-end?

Well it is low-end in the overall scheme of CDPs, but don't tell my headphones that, because they've gone from great (my original opinion back when I got the headphones) to just plain ear-opening. Stock, single-ended K701, HD650, and AD2000 are much more than mere "mid-fi" headphones if they can scale up with a $2.5K CDP from a dinky $400 CDP (the CEC).

And that's just the source. My amplifier journey has taken me from lowly portables like the Little Dot Micro+ and Xin SuperMini-III all the way up to the HeadAmp GS-X, and my headphones have absolutely opened up more with each new amplifier, with differences that aren't necessarily "drastic," but definitely easily noticeable, enough that it feels like the next level.

There are lots of sources and amps that I would love to hear with my headphones just to hear how much higher they can go, but at this point I honestly feel like they're being topped out. I'd imagine it wouldn't take much more (if any at all) to get 100% of their potential as-is.

But then when you're in my present situation of taking these headphones and balancing them, you can easily use them on any balanced amp and source, but I don't do things like that, I want to use them on ideally-scaled components. I can already hear the limitations of the K701, HD650, and AD2000 on my current equipment, but re-cabling will increase the performance potential, and balancing even more. So in that aspect I've gone for the highest-end balanced source feasible because both the re-cable and balanced operation will make them that much more scale-able.

In short, while the K701, HD650, and AD2000 may very well be bested by electrostats and some other (discontinued) headphones, they definitely scale up very high - higher than what most people are probably willing to invest into.

 

[khbaur330162]

Well said, Asr. Very well said.

 

[wower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said, Asr. Very well said.

X2!

There's lots of good information for people in that post. It's always a pleasure to read your comments Asr. You've given a very good description of the present state of head-fi in regards to how everyone can best use those phones. I think after 8 pages what we've boiled it down to is the scaling potential of those phones and identifying bottlenecks within the system. At least, that's what I am taking away from this thread and will apply it in the future.

 

[JSTpt1022]

Nice ASR. Live the dream

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. I'm totally in the front-end first camp. Why plug a Esoteric E-03 LE into KC75 I will never know. Plug in Wilson Audio or B&W into an iPod and atleast you have a fight chance. At least in my experience...

You are contrsdicting yourself here I think. The Esoteric is the front end.
And I can asure you that the Esoteric/KC75 will sound a lot better than the iPod with Wilson Audio.....

 

[wower]

Actually, thats not true; Wilsion has done this as a demo!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101720

You can of course do whatever you want but I don't feel assured by your assurances. There is enough subjectivity in this hobby for us both to be happy. I promise never to force someone to listen to my wilson audio/ipod system against their will.

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, thats not true; Wilsion has done this as a demo! http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101720 You can of course do whatever you want but I don't feel assured by your assurances. There is enough subjectivity in this hobby for us both to be happy. I promise never to force someone to listen to my wilson audio/ipod system against their will.

I believe my statement because I experienced it myself. It is not something I read somewhere.
I actually do expect people to believe me if I tell about my experience (naive, I know), but if they don't they won't profit from it and it's their loss.
I just sometimes want to share it so that those who want to may learn something from it.
You're free to make your own choice about whom and what you believe (or not) of course.

By the way. Any half decent High-End shop should be more than willing to set a demo up for this if you ask them.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a great and highly prolific thread! === Anyway - Piccolo - I agree with what you have to say for the most part, but scanning through the remainder of this thread, I noticed that people didn't catch something I feel you are overlooking - Basically, I feel that you are saying that headphones such as the HD650 represent the top tier of sophistication and technology for the most part - and people who prefer other headphones, of lower or equal sophistication, with the desire to call the 650 mid fi simply like the signature, or frequency reproduction of these other headphones more. This is all makes sense and all but it leaves something out. If THD and frequency response and tonal accuracy etc... etc... etc... was all there was to hi fidelity, this would make sense. However, what the top tier phones can do beyond this is: throw an wide and detailed sound stage, place instruments not just horizontally across the stage, but also in depth and vertically (something the HD650 cannot really even attempt). The diffusion of the instrumentation or lack of it also makes a difference - some of the electrostats have a sort of built in mechanism (per se) that minimizes the left and right 'blob' in the head effect that most headphones succumb to, which our minds are left to sort and interpret. Also, how well does the headphone react to harsh transients, quick transients, subtle treble nuances - just because a phone is detailed or has the right FR, are the drivers 'athletic' enough to handle delicacy, stridency, and bombast at the same time? Music - Not all music is hi fidelity. It doesn't necessarily contain the elements , nor does it need to. The problem I have with many of the so called 'high end' hi-fi headphones is that they do some things well, really well, better than the mid-fi pack, but others not well at all. This is not unlike the typical 'genius' who lacks balance in equal proportion to his/her gifts in another area of his/her life. HD650 - I have heard quite a few setups, owned quite a few, yada yada yada. I would say, this headphone, with the right source, with the right amplification, with the right aftermarket cable, and of course, with the right pair of ears and brain =), is ABSOLUTELY up there with the very best headphones, if not possible THE BEST. I'm serious. I like it better than the R10 (this headphone is too strident in the treble for me, it doesn't rock very well either), better than the HE90 at times - more texture and impact (at a cost of detail and sound stage and speed), better than the L3K (I don't care for the upper midrange on this headphone, or the overly closed in "can't breath' lack of air on top). Etc... etc... etc... Anyway, as I have stated before, and why I pretty much agree with Piccolo is that, I DO believe it comes down to finding the headphone that is right for you, with the FR that matches what you want to hear in conjunction with the music you usually listen to. Listening to music that suits your gear is a tragedy, we all try it, but eventually I feel, the love of music should shine though and you should listen to anything you like regardless of SQ. Secondly, while I agree with Piccolo for the most part, what I wish to add is that the so-called High End Hi-Fi phones are even more schizophrenic and human dependent. The 'all arounders' tend to be more mid-fi ish (so called, but I don't think that term is right for the HD6X0). However, I personally have found, that, if it were not for the Sennheiser Stats, I would likely have just gotten an SDS-XLR, HD650 and been happy with my setup. As it is I have already finished with my headphone setup (although not everything is quite here yet...) - I've been toying a lot with speakers... Neil

QFT - best post I've read in this thread. Great discussion BTW.

I think it's great that manufacturers make statement products, but I also appreciate that they consider market demand. I would love to see other manufacturers make $1k+ headphone rather than headfiers haveing to fight for the overpriced, rare ones from the past. It would save all of us money. But also realize if most people can't afford it, so I'd rather HP companies spend their R&D money on a headphone that the average audio nut can afford. It's not about having the biggest and best but what most people can enjoy.

CHECK YOUR PREFERENCE AT THE DOOR

I also have noticed in this thread and at headfi lately (or maybe it's been going on the whole time)~ people tend to say here is the bestest - I have the "King" for a bit less you can get the "Queen" and at the lower level you can have the "peasant" which gets spanked by MY King you little nooblet.

I have been longing for the Jolida JD100 CD player for a long time. My dealer/friend told me that it was the best front end up to $4K a few years ago. I laughed, went home and listened to my more detailed CD player and thought. I had a better front end at the time for $1,500 so I thought. Since then after some more upgrades, I have been longing for that CD player that I've felt I had gone several levels above. It has a midrange that threw me in the sweetspot (listened through speakers) and wouldn't let me leave. No CD player has done that to me since. But how can that be. The lows and highs aren't extended. The detail is not that good. It's not even that well known except for the small group that love it. Stereophile didn't say it was the best. Headfi hasn't given more posts about it being the best than any other player...

I think we run into the same thing with headphones. The HE-90 is the best headphone I've heard from top to bottom. period. And in a league of it's own if you want to use technical merits as the criteria. To me it betters the R10 and K-1000. I'm a dynamic guy but have to raise the white flag and bow to the HE-90. I would not bat an eye, however, if someone said I prefer the HD650 or the OII, or the K701s, or the RS-1 to it though because it brings them closer to the music and is frankly more enjoyable and engages them more.

Just had to get that off my chest

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said, Asr. Very well said.

x2

The sky is clearly the limit!